Friday, January 09, 2009

Israel sinks to new depths of depravity


The Times reports:

The United Nations has cited witnesses accusing Israeli troops of evacuating scores of Palestinians – including children – into a house in Gaza on Sunday and then shelling the property 24 hours later, killing approximately 30 people.

Just hours after calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, the UN cited witnesses of the alleged attack in the house in Zeitun, an eastern Gaza city neighbourhood.

The UN said that "according to several testimonies, on January 4, Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors. 24 hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30".

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) described it as "one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations" by Israeli forces in Gaza on December 27.


It's not only the UN which has lost patience with Israel's actions. The International Red Cross too has condemned Israel for obstructing its operations and for blatant breaches of humanitarian law.

On this blog we've had a lively debate this week as to whether Israel's brutal actions in Gaza can be equated to those of the Nazis. The case of those who maintain that they cannot gets weaker by the hour.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wow....Islamic nuts can spend the last 2 decades blowing up men women and children..teh set up schools and teach openly that if their little boys die killing a jew or an an infedel that they will get a bunch of virgins when they die..they launch rockets at schools adn civilians for years unanswerd..

And now there is an uproar...

Yeh it is sick that kids are dying,,I hate it!

But lets blame the nuts that cause this stuff..

wherever you find these quacks..you find murder slaughter etc..

Look at the nations that are led by these wonderful people...they slaughter christians by the 100's of thousands..in AFRICA..WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE!

Try and protest in Iran or worship a god but allah...off with your head!

Go ahead and strip Isreal adn The US of their ability to efend themselves..you will not like teh world we will have...

Anonymous said...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html


everything you need to know

Anonymous said...

Neil, there is a difference between hate speech and views I suppose. the first anon comment is not a view.

dan, portsmouth said...

Neil, I think you are trying to offend us by publishing such hate/islamophobic rubbish.

I don't think you would publish a reply contains similar links and language, it will be considered anti-semitic.

message received.

Thank you Neil.

Neil Clark said...

hi dan,

I'm not trying to offend anyone- i have a liberal comments policy here and i do believe in people being free to express opinions- even if we find them objectionable. I'm sure people can come to their own conclusion why anoymous is so keen to deflect attention away from Gaza.

all the very best,
Neil

Anonymous said...

I came across your site just now, very sad.

All the news is onesided.

This is a war. With modern warefare since the 1930s, all people are affected, starved, killed and bombed. This is what happens if you fight in urban areas.

It is sad and not good. I better start saving now for when I must pay my protection tax as I am a christian.

neil craig said...

Neil
A - What evidence is there that this happened? The fact that British journalists who, for 19 years told, the most obvious & obscene lies to assist the Nazis in their campaign of genocide against Serbs is not evidence that they are telling the truth this time.

B - Are you seriously suggesting that even if it happened (or something far smaller from which the story was spun happened) it would have been anything but accidental? Had the Israelis wanted to engage in indescriminate killing they could obviously have done so more effectively & with less effort in other ways.

C - Do you suggest that the killing of 30 people by Israelis can ever, under any circumstances, be compared with the genocide of hundreds of thousands of Serbs carried out by NATO & its catspaws? If not can there be any circumstances whatsoever under which the obscene racist filth who supported that war (including Short, Livinston, the entirity of the BBC, ITN & almost all UK newspaper journalists) or any people willing to join with them in attacking Jews can ever, under any circumstances claim anything approaching moral equality, let alone superiority, to the Israelis?

Unsuprising to see Dan, an out & out Nazi, who has been caught lying repeatedly & calling for the genocide of Israelis now also calling for censorship.

Bock the Robber said...

Neil -- I get people trying to sidetrack the discussion as well. It's a cheap trick.

There's nothing wrong with offending people, especially when they try to defend the murders of those trapped in Gaza.

The last anonymous is right in saying that this is what happens if you fight in urban areas. That's why Israel is wrong to imprison all those people behind a wall, and criminal to bombard them.

The bombardment of the Gaza ghetto is plainly a war crime by any civilised standards.

olching said...

Neil (Craig):

Are you seriously suggesting that even if it happened (or something far smaller from which the story was spun happened) it would have been anything but accidental?

Neil, I think the real charge is that it is doing very little (to say the least) to avoid such massacres. The IDF are indiscriminate in their bombing. Whether or not they kill civilians is of concern to them. The only problem is then explaining it sufficiently to the international press afterwards.

So while they may not be actively hunting down civilians and murdering (which is why I think the Holocaust comparison is highly flawed), they are not concerned if such killings take place.

That said, I can even imagine that the officers in charge might let the reigns loose a little when sending in their highly charged, aggressive, hormonal, slightly thick soldiers (kind of 'go and enjoy yourselves a little for the next hour'). This happens in most conflict zones. There is no reason to assume Gaza is any different: On the contrary, I find it difficult to believe that such things don't go on.

As Bock says, by any standards what is happening at the moment is criminal. Only apologists try to relativise it (it's still flawed and counterproductive to call it Holocaust).

Dan, portsmouth said...

Neil;
Sorry to I don't buy your reply after you have deleted my comment yeterday. and I won't be here for long for that specific reason.

Craig the dog;
When did I ever lie? this is an open challenge to prove your claim.

Once you fabricated a proof, shove it up your arsehole.

You, being apologist for child murdurers Jewish Nazi and mouth piece for the killers of Jesus need not to be taken seriaously.

Anonymous said...

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/unrwa-spokesperson-statement-on-israeli.html

Israel has retracted its claim that mortar fire came from the UN school, Jabalaya. How come MSM isn't hammering the lying (again) bastards? Why is the Guardian allowing people like Jonathan Romain to get away with this crap -
"Why blame children? Whatever sympathy the Hamas leadership might have deserved has evaporated after this moral own goal"

The woman and children in Jabalaya took refuge in that school, which the Israelis had air coordinates for, after the IDF dropped flyers - nothing like a group target is there. Anyone else think of the award winning Chris Hedges on the IDF pulling this kind of thing.

Madam Miaow said...

Guernica also springs to mind.

Anonymous said...

Neil Craig seems to conveniently forget that the trope about 'Nazi Serbs' was developed by the Neo Conservatives and their willing hasbaranics. Don't you dare conflate what happened to Yugoslavia and the Serbs to Israel. It's lobby, PNAC, AIPAC, the Armenian Holocaust denying ADL dished up the mendacious lies about the Serbs. They were the architects and enablers for the destruction of a sovereign nation, not for the first or last time either.

Bock the Robber said...

I hate to find myself on the same side as people like Dan from Portsmouth. Unfortunately, by it's criminal actions against the people of Gaza, Israel is also offering an open goal to every Jew-hating lunatic in the world.

You might be interested in this: the Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied territories.

Neil Clark said...

thanks for all the comments.

last anonymous is quite correct, and neil craig should reflect on what he has written.

and neil, please refer to an article I wrote in 2006 entitled 'From Belgrade to Baghdad and Beyond'

http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2006/03/from-belgrade-to-baghdad-and-beyond.html

an extract:

It’s worth remembering that the very same people who clamoured most loudly for action against Milosevic in the 1990s, were those who were at the forefront of the propaganda war against Iraq a few years later. And today, the very same hawks are trying to convince us of the necessity of ‘strong action’ against Iran. Among the members of the executive of the Balkan Action Committee, who lobbied for full scale war against Milosevic’s Yugoslavia in 1999, are three names that will need no introduction: Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. ‘It‘s either take action now, or lose the option of taking action’ was Perle’s recent comment on Iran: in addition to signing (along with Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz) a notorious letter to President Clinton in 1998 calling for a ‘comprehensive political and military strategy for bringing down Saddam and his regime’, he also acted as adviser to the Izetbegovic’s delegation at Dayton.

It’s time those who supported the military actions against Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and the current 'strong' line on Iran, realised that the biggest danger to peace did not come from Slobodan Milosevic, Mullah Omar, Saddam Hussein, or, now, from President Ahmadinejad, but from the serial warmongers who threatened them.

I might add that these serial neocon warmongers are now the loudest defenders of Israel's aggression.

Anonymous said...

neil, "Dan, Portsmouth" is a troll probably sent over from Harrys Place. Half the "swastikia" crap comes from dubious sources. they call it triangulation.

Anonymous said...

Olching: So while they may not be actively hunting down civilians and murdering (which is why I think the Holocaust comparison is highly flawed), they are not concerned if such killings take place.'

Sorry, but dropping "warning flyers" to the civilian populace, then blowing up UN buildings that the populace, on IDF advice, are taking refuge inside, isn't hunting 'actively hunting down civilians?'

No one and I mean no one has actively misused holocaust/nazi paraphernalia more than Israel and it's lobby so if you think anyone else is using flawed comparables, all I can say is, that horse already bolted, mate.

olching said...

"Whether or not they kill civilians is of concern to them."

I meant to say:

Whether or not they kill civilians is of no concern to them.

Anonymous said...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8222194

JERUSALEM (AP) — A U.N. agency says Israeli troops evacuated Palestinian civilians to a house in Gaza City, then shelled the building 24 hours later.

easy enuf to read up about the IDF taking positions inside residential properties in gaza while Arab civilians are kept trapped inside. Thought it was only hammas that did that?

Dan, portsmouth said...

Neil;
I have to apologize for my last comment, it doesn't reflect my stance or views, but I'm geniuntly offended by the first comment you published here.

What disturbs me is the fact I can't use the same language, can I say ( Jewish nuts can spend teh last 2 decades killng and plotting...etc?????? No way, but say Islamic and things get through.

You deleted one of my comments Yesterday, in which I answered Craig; liberal views is not a valid reason then.

You are a good friend, and someone I will always look up to, but I have to avoid your blog from now on as it make me agressive..

All the best.
Good bye.

Anonymous said...

This story has been debunked: the IDF have not ordered any civilians to move from one place to another, and they were not in the area when this house was blown up - it's behind Hamas lines.

Mr Clark, you are supposed to be a credible journalist, so perhaps you ought to check up these stories before posting them. Right now you are behaving like a political activist, not a journalist. There's a crucial difference between the two occupations.

olching said...

@anonymous:

Well, yes, Israel and the IDF constantly overuse and misuse the Holocaust. I thought we all agreed on that.

But equally the comparison to the Holocaust as carried out by Israel is flawed. They are war crimes, criminal actions etc...but it isn't the Holocaust. Let's not give the pro-war side ammunition by using the wrong semantics.

Best wishes.

Anonymous said...

If british citizens are assisting in war crimes, terrorism, lets have them face sanction on their return - It's good enough for the moslem community it should be good enough for the jewish community. Strangely, that isn't what happens.

http://www.thejc.com/articles/progressive-rabbi-trafalgar-square-rally-not-him?q=node/10773

British teenagers are working on army bases across Israel after being asked to help by the IDF.

The army approached the FZY youth movement, along with its American sister group Young Judea, to ask if participants on its year programme could volunteer. Teens from the religious Zionist movement, B’nei Akiva, also volunteered. Some IDF bases had been understaffed as soldiers were deployed to Gaza. The teenagers began working on eight bases across Israel on Sunday, packing kits for soldiers in Gaza, checking equipment for faults and monitoring stocks.

Gemma Geffin from London, 19, said: “We are spending our days packing the kits for the soldiers who are going into Gaza. Before we came I didn’t realise how much our presence here is directly helping the country.”

Sofia Lever, 19, from London, described it as “amazing”.

There are Palestinians who would debunk this little wanker and her cohorts about how amazing it is for them.

neil craig said...

Bock & Olching you pretty much accept that such casualties are inevitable in war. It then boils down to whether Israel has the right make war to defend itself from Hamas rockets, which while of small scale were undeniably genocidal rather than aimed at military targets. If you agree that the Hamas bombardment was a war crime, which is logical, then Israel are perfectly at liberty to defend themselves & the responsibility lies with Hamas who both started it & refuse to ceasefire.

The option in international law to mitigate urban deaths is that the defending army may declare somewhere an "open city" where they will not fight & which the attacker is therefore not entitled to bomb. They thus fight only where they do not endanger civilians. This is what the original Nazis did to prevent the destruction of Rome but clearly Hamas have less respect for the lives of their own people than the Germans did for Italian civilians. To say that the Israelis have not done enough to mitigate Palestinian deaths is credible only if you also acknowledge they have done far more than NATO ever did or indeed than Hamas are now doing to mitigate Palestinain deaths.

Dan asks where has he ever lied - well lets start with him saying that the Israelis were trying to kill as many Palestinians as physically possible as his Nazi friends in Krajina did.

Dan is now using the "killers of Christ" filth.

Are you not ashamed at the sort of obscene openly racist & genocidal Nazis you are finding "supporting" you?

I'm not sure what point Mous 3.19 is trying to make.

Neil perhaps you might also reflect that nobody here has been more opposed to the aggression against Yugoslavia & few more opposed to attacking Iraq than I. Certainly not the Nazi whore Clare Short. If being caught on the same side as the neocons is ultimate proof of being wrong then most of your allies in the anti-Israeli movement are wrong. Personally I would say being caught on the same side as Adolf Hitler is a considerably greater sign of being wrong & that applies to almost everybody condemning the Jews for daring to react to Hamas rocketing. Some such as Dan, show great enthusiasm for such an alliance.

This entire war would not have taken place if Hamas had not insisted on deliberately targeting Israeli civilians & it could be stopped if they were prepared to agree to a real ceasefire. The Israelis on the other hand have gone to considerable lengths to minimise Palestinian deaths (you may argue they have not gone far enough but they have certainly gone much further than Britain ever did). Had Israel wished to engage in genocide & ethnic cleansing they could easily have behaved as NATO politicians did.

This is the bottom line & even if you wish to criticise Israel you should admit the truth of these points & thus that they have behaved far better than our own leaders. We do not live in a world of perfection but the Israelis have proven more civilised than either arab or NATO states.

Neil Clark said...

dan- i have not deleted any of your comments, i can assure you,
sometimes not all comments come through- i'll have a double check.
there have been so many comments coming through I've been a bit overwhelemd, it's easy to miss one or two.
if not, could you resend the comment.
you are a valued member of this blog's community and I hope you reconsider you decision not to post here any more.

best wishes, neil

Neil Clark said...

dan: what happened was that your reply to neil craig- along with many other comments went straight to the blog's 'comments to be moderated' section and not to my email as they usually do. apologies to you and others whose comments have been delayed.

olching said...

Neil (Craig),

In international law it is about proportionality. Nothing the IDF are doing looks proportional to me or indeed to the 'international community' who have now unilaterally condemned Israel (apart from the US but who gives a fuck about them anyway).

So the charge, yet again, is that Israel is doing very little to nothing to prevent civilian casualties. Had it not been for international pressure, they would not even have allowed aid through in the three-hour window of ceasefire.

It's impossible to see this war in isolation, which is why your charge that Hamas is solely responsible for this war is nonsense. We can go back and look at the blockade and then go further back that it has always been a tit for tat.

Does Hamas bear responsibility? Yes, of course it does and life would be better without them. But Israel as the state actor, with big backing, free trade, arms, a professed democracy, has much more responsibility to bear, because of the much larger clout they have.

If they cannot be held responsible, then international law is bunk and we can abolish it, because apparently we can relativise any state's actions and make excuses for anything.

Come on, Neil, the same bullshit was offered Serbia was bombed.

Anonymous said...

neil craig said "Dan is now using the "killers of Christ" filth.

Yeah but here's you "Neil perhaps you might also reflect that nobody here has been more opposed to the aggression against Yugoslavia & few more opposed to attacking Iraq than I. Certainly not the Nazi whore Clare Short."

"nazi whore Clare short" Sounds a tad engage/democratiya to me.

Sorry if I misjudged you "Dan Portsmouth" non of us should lose sight that the same bastards guilty of dismembering yugoslavia and iraq are the same perpetrators in palestine.
Best regards.

Daniel (Srebrenica Genocide Blog) said...

It's time to stop murders and injustice. But how? It seems to me that the United Nations have failed the day they refused to stop Srebrenica Genocide.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Craig;
You exposed yourself as a lier.

My comment is not what you said, it was this:

(((Anonymous remark about the so-calledI Israel desire to kill as many Palestinians as possible is correct and became old news now.
Israeli papers has reported about the planning of the offensive in length, also Amira Hass has written about it, on the 31st of Dec in Haaretz, and criticized the timing of the offensive, 11:30. which is the time school children change shifts at schools.)))

So I clearly was referring to NEWS, in Haaretz, by Amira Hass.

Here is an extract from her article:

(Whoever gave the instructions to send 100 of our planes, piloted by the best of our boys, to bomb and strafe enemy targets in Gaza is familiar with the many schools adjacent to those targets - especially police stations. He also knew that at exactly 11:30 A.M. on Saturday, during the surprise assault on the enemy, all the children of the Strip would be in the streets - half just having finished the morning shift at school, the others en route to the afternoon shift.)

2nd Evidence:
Hamas government has evacuated all official buildings prior to the attack, but Israel tricked Hamas by implying no attack will take place before Sunday, Police went back to work, and get bombed by Israel.

This is also according to Haaretz on the 31st December.

Why would israel want official buildings not to be evacuated? and planned the attack at the exact time all school children change school shifts?

Answer: To get as many of them as possible, this is what Israeli papers are implying.. But because you are an animal, you will refute what Israelis are admitting.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Neil;
Thank you for your kindness and patience on me.

I should have been more civilized but could blame it on the news I suppose.

Bock the Robber said...

Neil Craig -- Do not speak on my behalf and do not twist my words.

I said that Israel is wrong to imprison all those people behind a wall, and criminal to bombard them.

anarchyintheuk said...

When the UK and the US gets on the band wagon of atrocities it takes the biscuit. Nowun till

How this blog ever got a nomination for the UK blog of the year is open to guess work, this article is cut and paste, any idiot can do that

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"This story has been debunked: the IDF have not ordered any civilians to move from one place to another, and they were not in the area when this house was blown up - it's behind Hamas lines"

which "story" are you talking about - this one that even israeli press reports http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html


Daniel at "Srebrenica Genocide" - is that the only genocide you want to talk about. Again, too convenient by half. The Neo Cons used moslems, some fundamentalists but mostly criminal gangs against Serb and other christians then they used christians against moslems in Iraq. Divide, conquer then rule. You're scratching at straws like Daniel Craig who thinks Israel has the "right to defend themselves" from a group (hamas) they galvanised in the first place against secular PA. It's all going to catch up with them in the end - that's when we'll have justice.

Anonymous said...

anarchyintheuk said...

"How this blog ever got a nomination for the UK blog of the year is open to guess work, this article is cut and paste, any idiot can do that"

Yeah, anarchyintheuk is right neil, you need to do more stuff like this off the wankeryintheuk's site

"Benefit cosmetics makeup - You rebel tinted moisturizer

Benefit cosmetics makeup have a superb range of products and high on the list of must haves, is BeneFit You rebel, which is a tinted moisturizer with spf15 protection. It gives you light coverage, SPF 15 protection, and moisturizing all in one handy tube. Youll get just a hint of tint that adjusts to almost any skin tone. You rebel, is a great alternative to powder bronzer, providing a sunny glow and is ideal for for Normal to Oily skin."


If we promise to put a bulk order in for rebel mascara and anti capitalist non run foundation, will you promise to fuck off and not come back, "anarchyintheuk." cheers.

Anonymous said...

'The fact that British journalists who, for 19 years told, the most obvious & obscene lies to assist the Nazis in their campaign of genocide against Serbs is not evidence that they are telling the truth this time.'


cute tactic Neil Craig...we cant trust journalists :BUT we can trust you and other zionists.

You really are putting in overtime to defend a criminal entity that is happy to wipe a people off the map and say: 'We are very violent'

'The petitions – over attacks on medical personnel and the shelling of United Nations schools in Gaza – follow statements by senior Israeli commanders that they have been using heavy firepower to protect soldiers during their advance on built-up areas. “We are very violent,” one told Israeli media.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01092009.html

Brian

neil craig said...

Dan at 8.44 says that I lied when I said he called the Jews Christ killers which was & is, in my opinion, a new depth even for such a disgusting & obscene Nazi representative of the anti-Israel movement.

Anybody here can see that he is lying. That in his post 2.19 he referred to the Jews as "the killers of Jesus". Since other anti-Jews here have been loath to dissociate themselves from such a loathsome lying piece of filth it is clear exactly what the movement represents.

Anonymous 7.38 if you cannot see a difference between calling Jews Jesus killers (even if such a person existed nobody currently alive, Jewish, Roman or indeed Palestinian was there) & calling Clare Short an obscence corrupt racist murdering Nazi whore (which is simple fact) I would take that as indicative of the double standards visible here.

Olching I disagree with you that a reason to oppose Israel is because it is a free market democracy unlike the surrounding corrupt dictatorships which are implicitly more admirable.

This also contradicts the position of most Hamas supporters who say, correctly, that Hamas deserves credit for having been elected.

jock mctrousers said...

Neil, there are far too many anonymouses on this thread for intelligibility - could you not insist that posters use a name? Making up a pen-name isn't rocket science.

olching said...

Neil (Craig),

I said Israel professes to be a western democracy. It is therefore reasonable to hold it to the standards it sets itself by making this claim. So we can also accuse Israel of being hypocritical.

Hamas have never claimed such a thing. They are therefore not hypocritical. Criminal, yes, but not hypocritical.

Israel are also so much more powerful - militarily, financially and re political clout - that clamouring about Hamas and equalling their 'record' is a false comparison from the outset; particularly since the death toll exceeds that of 10:1 against the Palestinians.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Craig came with another lie;
Quot: ( Dan at 8.44 says that I lied when I said he called the Jews Christ killers)

This is another lie from you, I never discussed the thing about christ killers in that comment.

I only discussed the claim about killing as many palestinians as possible in the first strike.

And for your information, Jews are boasting ( we killed jesus and proud of it)

see this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ATjlC73htGc

I shouldn't take you seriously anymore, you are a sad petty lier.

Anonymous said...

Israel is a dictatorship...what role do its arab population have in the govt decisions?

Israel was a major backer of aparttheid SA and has been arming the narcoterorrists in place like Columbia

Brian

olching said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
neil craig said...

What exactly is thjat Nazi moron Dan, portsmouth trying to prove in denying that he criticised the Jews as killers of Christ when anybody can see on post his 2nd post here that he attacked the Jews as "the killers of Jesus" & me as defending them.

Well I am proud to defend anybody from such obscene filth, even tho it clearly represents a very strong strand of the anti-Israel movement.

(Incidentally as an example of hypocritical Nazism may I reccomend his first post in which he asks Neil Clark not to publish criticism of Hamas because this is "Islamophobic" & unbalanced as Neil wouldn't allow the publication of anything anti-Semitic)

Paul D said...

Brian is so barmy!

I suggest discovering the world of facts would be a good idea.

There are many examples of Arab Israelis holding political office in Israel e.g. M.P.s.

I wonder if Brian holds a British bank account with a mainstream bank in which case almost certainly that Bank was trading with South Africa during its apartheid days. There are of course numerous examples like that.

It is distressing to see so much hatred of the Jews (and I use that word as opposed to Israelis) on this blog.

It is a shame Neil Clark as the host does not do anything about this. He has not done anything to discourage the nasty anti semitic comments on this blog and one would have thought a professional journalist would act more fairly even if his basic stance is more pro Palestinian than pro Israel.

I would be interested in how Neil Clark's anti Israel stance is framed and whether he is comfortable rubbing shoulders with the likes of the far left like Galloway and the far right like the militant Jihadist Islamists; and whether his position is affected as a result of his runins with the likes of Oliver Kamm and Stephen Pollard.

And before anyone tries to rubbish me I am most certainly not a neocon and I opposed the Iraq war.

Anonymous said...

IDF uses live ammo to break up West Bank protests
By Nir Hasson and Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondents

Palestinians and Israeli left-wing activists claim that in the wake of Operation Cast Lead, the Israel Defense Forces has reintroduced the use of a semiautomatic rifle that uses live ammunition to disperse crowds that was banned after the second Intifada.

The Ruger .22 rifle was banned following the Al-Aqsa Intifada, in which it was used to break up protests and caused the deaths of a number of Palestinians, including youths and children.

In 2001, the IDF's then-Military Advocate General Menahem Finkelstein ruled that the rifle, used against protesters and stone-throwers, be viewed as a lethal weapon in all senses.

The rifle has been used by snipers to shoot at protesters from the waist down, and last Friday it was used to fire on activists, eight of whom sustained light wounds to the leg.

The .22 rifle fires a small cartridge which has a much lower stopping power than larger caliber rifles in use by Israeli security forces, but can still be lethal at close range. IDF snipers will use the rifle to fire at demonstrators, aiming at the lower half of the body.

The rifle was used by security forces against Palestinian demonstrators in the West Bank last Friday, with 8 demonstrators sustaining light wounds to their legs.

"We have never seen these rifles used before. The soldiers use them to break up demonstrations, not in instances where their lives are in danger. They shoot from long range, far past the range of rock-throwers," left-wing activist Yonatan Pollak said.

A West Bank resident who was wounded by the .22 fire told Haaretz Friday that he and his friends were leaving their village for a demonstration when as they approached the West Bank Security Fence they were fired upon by IDF soldiers.

The man said he was shot three times in the leg and suffers from lingering pain as a result. He said his friend who was also shot in the incident was more severely injured and lost a great deal of blood.

An IDF official said Friday that the rifle is less lethal and causes less damage than a rubber bullet.

"These demonstrations can be very dangerous. Our goal is to cause as little damage as possible in order to calm the situation", the official said.

http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/idf-uses-live-ammo-to-break-up-west.html?bcsi_scan_52FB1F9A17E12BC9=0&bcsi_scan_filename=idf-uses-live-ammo-to-break-up-west.html



'An IDF official said Friday that the rifle is less lethal and causes less damage than a rubber bullet.'

WHO would trust an IOF official?


Brian

Neil Clark said...

Hi Paul D: thanks for writing in- I think anyone who reads this blog on a regular basis will know that I have absolutely no time for racism of any kind- be it anti-semitism, Judeophobia, Arabophobia, Serbophobia or Russophobia.
I am not aware that any Judeophobic comments have been posted here- what we have had is soem fairly robust criticism of Zionism and Israel, which is not the same thing. For me the Israel/Gaza situation is most certainly not about Jews- it's about imperialism and the oppressors and the oppressed.
Israel is the aggressor in this situation which is why I oppose it- along with plenty of Jews too.



best wishes,

Neil

neil craig said...

Neil Clark you published Dan's attack on me calling me a liar for saying that he had attacked the Jews for killing Jesus (something which I hope we would both agree would be an obscene racist attack).

Now you appear not to have accepted my response pointing out that he did indeed say it - calling them "the killers of Jesus" on the 10th post here.

A little thought will show on how many levels this is improper if it was deliberate censorship.

neil craig said...

Neil Clark you published Dan's attack on me calling me a liar for saying that he had attacked the Jews for killing Jesus (something which I hope we would both agree would be an obscene racist attack).

Now you appear not to have accepted my response pointing out that he did indeed say it - calling them "the killers of Jesus" on the 10th post here.

A little thought will show on how many levels this is improper if it was deliberate censorship.

Neil Clark said...

hi neil: i never censor yr comments- so many comments coming in hard to keep up- and some are not going to my email but into the blog system. will try and find the comment you refer to.

best wishes,
Neil

neil ctaig said...

Thanks Neil - I accept that such things do happen & have even managed to do so myself despite having far fewer comments than you.

Paul D said...

Dear Neil Clark,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my particular post. I appreciate that as I do your allowing 'contrary' views onto your blogspace. Clearly I am in a minority on this blog and I may just give up soon in trying to stem the tide.

However, I am concerned that there are comments appearing on the Israel/Palestine posts here that do appear to show the poster as having anti Jewish tendancies (see some of stuff by Dan of Portsmoutn and Anonymous Brian - there are others too). I never used to believe that being anti zionist ever equated to being anti semitic but I am afraid I have seen too many comments on many websites that sadly lead me to conclude otherwise.

There are too many people who take a delight in putting the boot into the Jews and focusing on the state of Israel (which is a very small country)to the exclusion of appalling events going on in other parts of the world eg Congo, Darfur , China etc. There are double standards applied to Israel.

If Israel was purely the aggressor and bent on some imperialist adventure to create a 'greater Israel' then I would be condemning it. But it really is not!! And the irony lost on you and your supporters is that in contrast Hamas is bent on being an imperialist aggressor as it wants to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Because of the theology attached to Hamas' raison d'etre and the inconvenience to them that the ancient race of the Jews still exists, they cannot ever agree to the continued existence of Israel. And then what would happen to the Jews?

I have mentioned on another post that the default position of the political left is largely very anti Israel. And yet there was a time when the default position of the political left was to support Israel. And it was the case Israel was governed by a ruling socialist party for some 30 years after creation.

I ask you again do you support a two state solution; and if not how would the Jews survive and where should they go?

Paul D said...

Neil C - further to my last post, have you looked at the comments to the article by John Pilger to which you provided a link. My goodness - there are people on there saying it's ok to be anti - semitic and proclaiming themselves to be so! And also saying that it's a good idea to publicise the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.

Bock the Robber said...

That's an interesting view of the word "imperialist".

I wonder if it wasn't Hamas, but a secular group like Fatah, demanding their land back, would Paul also call them imperialists?

And would he call the expulsion of these Palestinians in 1948 an act of peace and brotherhood, rather than imperialism?

By the way, Fintan O Toole has an interesting article in today's Irish Times entitled "Six-step Guide to Justifying Atrocities".

Dan, portsmouth said...

Paul D;
You wrote: (Hamas is bent on being an imperialist aggressor as it wants to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea).

You also said that Hamas would kill every Jew if the zionist state ceased to exist.

Would you provide evidence on this.

Anonymous said...

Paul D, there aren't so called Dafur Lobbies or members of sudanees diaspora actively, via donations/ politically motivated groups, lobbying subverting parliament or congress. they aren't using "megaphones" drilling their diaspora all over the world to beat up that editor or that politician or get this or that journalist sacked. The problem with "antisemitism" is that it has become a politcall tool, it's now about the people the Jews don't like. There are enough Jews themselves recoiling from this behaviour particularly since they can see for themselves the outcome.
zionism is tied in with globalised profiteering whether or not grass root zionist intended it. you and sites such as Harrys place can bleat on as much as you like about so called antisemitism in places like Venazuala or Anti Lobby publications here in the west but it isn't stemming the tide running against it, nor will it.
there's a real kicker going on from pro israel bloggers who want to remind critics from US / GB to look what they did in Iraq, these morons either don't know about PNAC and a Clean Break or think the rest of us don't. Colin Powell, who detested the 'JINSA crowd' is antisemitic too, I suppose.

Anonymous said...

Paul:
'However, I am concerned that there are comments appearing on the Israel/Palestine posts here that do appear to show the poster as having anti Jewish tendancies (see some of stuff by Dan of Portsmoutn and Anonymous Brian - there are others too). I never used to believe that being anti zionist ever equated to being anti semitic but I am afraid I have seen too many comments on many websites that sadly lead me to conclude otherwise.'

Paul is worried: now he wants to sense views that rebuke Israels policyu of genocide. Pauls manner is the same one that has cowed US Congress and most of the media....allowin alternative view on blog sites like this one.

Why are you here Paul if not to be Hasbara?

Brian...

Anonymous said...

'You also said that Hamas would kill every Jew if the zionist state ceased to exist.'

What paul means here is that Eveyr palestinian is to be killed to allow the jewish state to exist!

Yes paul THAT is whats happening.

Here is Subcommandate Marcos on this issue:
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14653

Brian

Anonymous said...

My goodness - there are people on there saying it's ok to be anti - semitic and proclaiming themselves to be so! And also saying that it's a good idea to publicise the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.'

The real antisemitism is that of Paul and his fellow zionists.
As for the protocols, just see howe US congress marches to zionist orders.

Even Kuchinich says hes a friend of Israel! on the Democracynow interview

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/12/kucinich_cites_arms_export_and_control

Brian

Anonymous said...

To Paul and the other Hasbara

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/12/tens_of_thousands_demonstrate_globally_against

BUT WHO demonstartes FOR Israel? Only those who are controled by the zionists: that is our political leaders and the MSM.

Brian

neil craig said...

Hamas record of attempting to kill any ewish civilians is undeniable, indeed it is the cause of this war. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel not merely its defeat & speaks favourably of the Protocols lie. That they are not merely committed to but practicing genocide is undeniable except by wholly corrupt Nazis.

Speaking of which Dan, having demanded proof of the above has yet to produce any of the repeatedly requested proof for his claims that the Israelis are currently exterminating the entire population of Gaza or that any living Jew was personally responsible for killing Jesus - 2 obscene racist lies that Dan has pushed & the former an obvious racist lie supported by a number of the Nazi scum here who make up so much of the anti-Israeli movement.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Craig;
Fuck you.
No evidence has been produced on the claims over Hamas. Your lies is not evidene.
Fuck you again Craig.

Dan, portsmouth said...

By the way Neil,
I fully support the statement by Mr Tamimi, Israel has dug it's own grave, because killers of children will never succeed, even if supported by the USA and the likes of dogs like Craig.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Neil clark;
The lies that is being repeated again and again by Craig, do you not think it degrades your blog?

Did I say Israel is currently exterminating the entire population? or there are living Jews who are responsible for killing Jesus?

Of course you publish whatever you want. but tell your friends raise up the level of argument to a literate level.

Paul D said...

In answer to recent comments to my last post I say as follows:

Bock the Robber: I used the word 'imperialist' in relation to Hamas to hammer home the point that their founding charter calls for the annihilation of the Jews; and that any ceasefire or deal with Israel is not recognising the state of Israel to exist; only a temporary recognition of a state in the land where Israel is situated (a different thing) until such time as it becomes powerful enough to attack and seek to destroy Israel.

Israel was trying to reach a peace deal with Fatah and a two state solution was on offer at Oslo which Arafat refused. A two state solution was sanctioned by the UN in 1947 and again the Arabs wouldn't accept this.

Look, there is no issue of land displacement in this region. It has also happened all around the world. How best to solve it. It is not going to be realistic or practical to transfer land back and there can be other ways of providing compensation etc as part of a lasting peace deal.

Dan of Portsmouth (What has Portsmouth done to deserve you)- I suggest you read Hamas founding Charter and listen to the outpourings of its leaders and backers.

Anonymous - I don't know if you are 'Brian' - I suspect not as you write better than him. I sincerely hope you are not plugging 'the Jewish lobby in the US is running western policy' argument as that smacks clearly of the Elders of the Protocol of Zion. Yes, there is an American Jewish lobby group in the US as well as many other lobby groups. It is of course well established that around 80% of American Jews routinely vote Democrat in the US and therefore did not vote for George W Bush or the Iraq war.

As I have stated elsewhere I never used to believe that anti zionism equated to anti semitism but it increasingly does and is borne out by some of the contributors on this site.

Look, Jewish opinion (as well befits the Jews) has many different opinions about the situation in the Middle East. It is not helpful however for people to quote extreme Jewish anti zionists like say Tony Greenstein or Naomi Klein as somehow typical or mainsteam of Jewish opinion.

Now, turning to Brian's contributions, I am afraid I do not understand what you are going on about. Also, I am not familiar with the word you quote 'Hasbara'. Are you suggesting there should be censorship on this site and that no posters whatsoever who wish to put a view that does not regard Israel as beyond the pale should be allowed on. Would that make your life more comfortable Brian?

Why am I on this site? Well I've dipped into this site from time to time for some time. Don't necessarily agree with a lot of it; but hey I am open minded enought to look at many different points of view.

Brian's next comment is too stupid to respond to. (9.46).

His 9.49 comment is also ridiculous.

One sincerely hopes that Brian does not hold a position of any meaningful authority in real life with judgments such as his.

What will you people do with your time once the dust settles.

olching said...

Without taking sides, just an observation, but Dan you did refer to Jewish people as "the killers of Jesus" (I copied and pasted it from your post). I'm not sure how such an archaic slur is relevant to the current political situation in Gaza.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Olching;
I said what you quoted ( killers or Jesus) but not what Craig said ( living Jew was personally responsible for killing Jesus).

There is a differenece between what I said and what Craig is falsly attributing to me.

I meant the video blow, its not for me to approve or condemn it's contents, and my response wasn't worse than the cheap smearing accusations thrown at me. read his comments.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ATjlC73htGc

I have to say, I'm not happy for this level of discussions, Neil Clark deserve more educated discussion on his blog.

neil craig said...

Thanks Olching. The Nazi liar also said & repeatedly refused to retract that the Israelis were engaged in, genocide, total destruction (ie a holocaust) a killing as many Gazans as possible all of which clearly mean killing all 1.5 million of them.

Any time this disgusting Nazi wants to apologise for these remarks he may do so. He may also aplogise for previously calling me a liar for mentioning his obscenity about Christ killing.

Clearly if Dan (& those anti-Semites who do not dissociate themselves from him) is anything other than a totally corrupt lying Nazi piece of filth whom no decent political movement would have as a member then his claim never to have made the "Jesus killer's" remark would have to be truthful & if Dan (& etc) is anything other than a totally corrupt lying Nazi piece of filth whom no decent political movement would have as a member then his above admission to having said it would have to be truthful.

QED

Now lets have your apology Dan.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Paul D;
Just read your disgusting response.

You have no evidence, people call your unfounded claims, LIES.

No supporters of children murderers in Portsmouth, since I'm here.

neil craig said...

Yes Dan you Nazi filth you did. Worse yet, you have repeatedly refused to retract or apoligise for them. You have produced no evidence whatsoever that anything Paul said is untrue.

If you were honestly unhappy about the level of honesty here Dan then you would crawl back to your bunker since you are far & away the main liar here, not one of whom is on the pro-Israeli side.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Neil clark;
could I ask you opinion, If I said what Craig is attributing to me or not.
in other words, who is the lier, me or Craig.
also, why do you really allow filth and street language here? when it's not allowed anywhere else; i.e CIF for example.
thank you

Bock the Robber said...

The comments have deteriorated into a childish squabble.