Thursday, January 22, 2009

The Gaza Ghetto: After Israel Left

Pictures speak louder than words. The First Post has put together a series of photographs showing the destruction of Gaza: 'The Gaza Ghetto-After Israel left'.

The pictures are shocking, and I hope they will give those who describe themselves as 'Friends of Israel' cause to at least ponder for a while the position they take on this issue.

If you really think that the deaths of 24 Israeli citizens over the last four years from rocket attacks justifies mass murder and destruction on this scale, then I'm afraid there is something very, very wrong with your moral compass.

53 comments:

Deucaon said...

And what exactly justified the war that HAMAS started in the first place? What do you expect Israel to do? Sit around and ponder while HAMAS fires rockets into Israeli schools and hospitals? Yes, people die and property gets destroyed... but what do you expect from a war?

One things for certain, unlike the vast majority of attacks carried out by HAMAS, the vast majority of attacks carried out by the IDF was in order to kill soldiers who hid in urban areas and among civilians. You cant really blame Israelis for what they did, otherwise you might as well blame them for fighting at all (which is obviously ridiculous).

Dan, portsmouth said...

This palestinian girl reduced me to tears,

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7LMOFv7228

Those who celebrated killing Palestinian women and children and burning them by phosphorus bombs will not oppose creating ten Ghettos..

Neal said...

Neil,

I think that your government, were there to be rockets being shot into Britain willy nilly, would do worse than the Israelis have done.

We have some evidence of that because the Hamas rockets were rather similar in their accuracy to German rockets shot during WWII.

Neil Clark said...

Neal:
"I think that your government, were there to be rockets being shot into Britain willy nilly, would do worse than the Israelis have done."

Please don't take offence, but that's claptrap. I think you'll find that rather more than 24 people were killed by IRA bomb attacks on the British mainland and the British govt did not respond by bombing Dublin or laying siege to cities in the south of Ireland, cutting off water and putting people in Republican supporting towns on a 'diet'.
Compared to Israel's actions, the British govt's response to the IRA was remarkably restrained.

Trying to equate Hamas' rocket attacks on southern Israel, with Hitler's very deadly doodlebugs, is just plain silly.

Deucaon:
"You cant really blame Israelis for what they did"
Really? I think you'll find that most ordinary people with a sense of right and wrong do just that.

olching said...

Deucaon:

That is moral relativism. Even if we acknowledge that Hamas has itself acted criminally towards its own people, the sheer disproportionality of this war makes it impossible to make the obscene claim you are making.

Israel is not the 8-year-old being bullied by the 18-year-old who one day loses it and throws a stone and kills him. No. Israel decided that this level of destruction and death was perfectly admissible for a country that claims to be part of the western sphere. It's agency. They still actively decided to bomb.

By any standard, this war was horrendous, unless one has no standards whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

No other country in the world could get away with behaving the way Israel has in Gaza, and yet still enjoy the full unconditional support of the West.

Of course Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorism. But that doesn't mean it has the right to murder 100s of entirely innocent civilians!

Neal said...

olching,

Clearly, a cease fire before Israel's invasion began did not prevent Hamas from firing rockets and mortars into Israel. Here is an account of some events listed in Wikipedia, from the time of the "truce" up to and including Israel's response to the tunnel dug by Hamas into Israel on November 4:

June 19, 2008
Through Egyptian mediation Israel and Hamas agreed to a six month cease-fire on June 17th that went into effect on June 19, 2008 at 6:00 AM.[54][55]
June 20, 2008
Gilad Herman, an Israeli settler in the West Bank settlement of Yashif, unintentionally fires upon an Israeli when he launches a home-made rocket towards Palestinian West Bank. The rocket lands "meters away from a Breslov hassid who was praying in the area." No one is hurt.[56]
June 23, 2008
A single mortar shell was also fired from Gaza late Monday night and landed on the Israeli side of the border fence.[57][58] No organization claimed responsibility for the attack.[59]
June 24, 2008
Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas.[60]
Islamic Jihad rocket exploding in the distance, breaking the 5-day truce
Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had been a response to an Israeli military raid in the West Bank city of Nablus at dawn on Tuesday, in which a senior Islamic Jihad operative Tareq Abu Ghali, 24 and another Palestinian university student Iyad Khanfar, 21 were killed. An Israeli Army spokesman said that Abu Ghali had been involved in terrorism and that he was "killed in an exchange of fire." The man killed with him was armed, the spokesman said.
The rocket attack occurred hours after Olmert met President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el Sheik to discuss the next steps in the tenuous Egyptian-mediated truce and the renewal of efforts to resolve the case of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli corporal held by Hamas in Gaza since June 25, 2006.
Israeli Defense Ministry decided that Israel would keep the Gaza border crossings closed Thursday, except for special humanitarian cases, in response to Tuesday's Qassam rocket attacks[61]
June 26, 2008
A rocket hit an open area of the industrial zone outside Sderot. There were no reports of injuries or damage, according to army sources. The Fatah-affiliated Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. In a text message sent to reporters, it said "the truce must include the West Bank and all sorts of aggression must stop."
On Thursday morning, Hamas accused Israel of violating the terms of the Gaza cease-fire a day after Israeli Defense Ministry decided that Israel would keep the Gaza border crossings closed Thursday, except for special humanitarian cases, in response to Tuesday's Qassam rocket attacks - "If the crossings remain closed, the truce will collapse", Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Thursday morning.[62]
June 27, 2008
Early on Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire.
Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel.
Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel. "The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement", he said following Friday prayers.[63]
June 28, 2008
Mortar shells were fired at the Karni crossing. No one claims responsibility for the attacks. Israel blocks all shipments into Gaza except fuel, in response to the rocket and mortar attacks.[64]
June 30, 2008
A rocket falls near the town of Mefalsim. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. In response Israel once again closes the crossings that had previously been reopened on June 29, 2008.[65]

[edit] July

July 2, 2008
There were no rocket or mortar attacks so Israel reopens the four Gaza crossings on Wednesday July 2. Since a truce began June 19, Israel has closed the passages a total of six days in retaliation for rocket attacks.[66]
July 3, 2008
A rocket lands in an open area north of Sderot. A previously unknown organization calling itself the "Badr Forces" claims responsibility for the attack. In response Israel temporarily closes the crossings on July 4, 2008.[67]
July 7, 2008
A mortar shell is fired at Israel from Gaza on Monday and lands near the Karni crossing.[68]
July 8, 2008
After two mortar attacks from Gaza at the Sufa crossing, one fell just inside Gaza and the other at the crossing. Israel closed all the crossing. After an Egyptian request they reopened the crossings. Hours after the crossings opened at noon, militants fired another shell into Israel, causing no casualties or damage, the Israeli military said. Israel kept the crossings open. No Palestinian group immediately claimed responsibility.
In all, 15 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza since the truce took effect on June 19. Israel has responded automatically by snapping shut the crossings, which have been closed about half of the time. So far the truce has not eased conditions in Gaza because of the frequent closures.[68]
July 10, 2008
Two Qassam rockets were fired at Israel, but caused no damage, after an unarmed Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades infiltrator was killed at the Kissufim crossing. An Israeli Army spokesman said they fired warning shots and when the man did not stop they killed him. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades vowed revenge and claimed responsibility for the rocket attack.
In the West Bank city of Nablus, Israeli troops continued for a fourth straight day a crackdown on institutions it links to the militant Hamas movement. On Wednesday July 10 they shot dead a Hamas member near the West Bank city of Jenin.[69]
July 12, 2008
A rocket lands in an open area in Sha'ar Hanegev regional council. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack.[70]
July 13, 2008
Two mortar shells are misfired and they land on the Gaza side of the border security fence in the Nahal Oz region. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. Israel responds by only closing the Nahal Oz and Sufa crossings.[71]
July 15, 2008
A mortar hit is identified.[72]
July 25, 2008
A rocket misfires and lands in Gaza near the Kissufim crossing.[73]
July 29, 2008
Another rocket is launched from Gaza and mistakenly lands in Gaza.[74]
July 31, 2008
Again, a rocket misfires and lands in Gaza.[75]

[edit] August

August 1-31st
In the month of August 7 rockets and 12 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.[76]

[edit] September

September 1-30th
The month of September represented a considerable lull in the number of rocket and mortar attacks. In this month, 3 rockets and 2 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. They caused no injuries or deaths.[77]

[edit] October

October 11th
A single rocket was launched from Gaza into Israel resulting in no injuries or deaths.[78]

[edit] November

The Israel Security Agency reports a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks, including towards Ashkelon. According to the Israel Security Agency, "this was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th". Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.[79] The first of these were fired after the Israeli operation on the Gaza side of the border on the 4th of November to prevent an abduction for which Hamas had dug a tunnel, according to Israeli sources. During this operation, 7 Hamas militia were killed inside Gaza[80]
November 6-12th
Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border, claiming the tunnel is designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to flounder.[81] Between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel.[82]


According to that same article, the following occurred from that point up to the time of the end of the "truce":

November 12-19th
In this week 62 rockets and 26 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. The results of these attacks were that 16 people were wounded, 13 from shock and 3 from light wounds.[83]
November 21st
A rocket hit the Ashkelon industrial area.[84]
November 22-23rd
Four Qassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel over the weekend.[85]
November 24-25th
Two Qassam rockets landed in Israel.[86]
November 26-27th
Four Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev, one damaging a house on a kibbutz. [87]

[edit] December
__________

December 3rd
At least four Qassam rockets and 15 mortar rounds were fired from the Gaza Strip at the western Negev. Islamic Jihad's Al-Quds Brigades claimed responsibility. One mortar attack damaged an Israeli power cable being used to transfer electricity to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. [88]
December 6-7th
At least 20 Qassam rockets and mortar shells fired from the Gaza Strip hit the western Negev over the weekend. One Qassam landed near a Sderot school.[89]
December 12th
Two rockets launched from the Gaza Strip hit open space in Israel a week before a truce is set to expire. The Qassam rockets launched Friday landed in open areas and caused no damage. [90]
December 16th
At least six Qassam rockets and a mortar shell hit Israel hours after Israeli troops killed an Islamic Jihad commander in the West Bank. One of the rockets fired landed in the soccer field of Sderot's Sapir College. Several people were treated for shock. Following the attack, Israel defense Force troops hit a Qassam launcher in northern Gaza.[91]
December 17th
A Qassam rocket struck the parking lot of a shopping center in Sderot, injuring three Israelis. At least 18 rockets and 6 mortar shells were fired this day on southern Israel, 48 hours before the truce between Israel and the Hamas expired. [92]
December 18th
Hamas declares the end of the 6 Month Truce with Israel. Three rockets are fired at Israel by the Al-Quds Brigades.[93]
December 19th
The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[94]
December 21st


Were Israel the US, Gaza would be flattened in its entirety. Were Israel Britain, the same. The same for France, for Germany, for Italy and for any other country.

So, enough of the hypocrisy from our holier than thou Europeans.

olching said...

Neal,

Were Israel the US, Gaza would be flattened in its entirety. Were Israel Britain, the same. The same for France, for Germany, for Italy and for any other country.

Well, having just watched a Channel 4 news exclusive report from Gaza, all I can say is that Israel wasn't far off from flattening Gaza. Watching that Aussie cunt Mark Regev squirming under questions about the use of weapons in civilian areas where they are prohibited from being used was and straightening his tie confirmed my greatest fears:

The Israelis has shown no proportion or humanity in their latest offensive against Gaza. On the contrary, it looks worse than I had thought (and if you followed my comments you'll have noticed that I did not take a 'hardline' on this issue, as I've been waiting - and still am - on facts coming out of Gaza).

It looks far far worse than I had ever thought: White phosphorus bombs in areas known to be densely populated, fragmentation bombs, indiscriminate use of them, and countless victims.

Neal, stop relativising, mate. You can cite individual rockets being fired by Hamas as much as you want (not that I have ever said I condone it, on the contrary), but the fact is you are not looking reality in the face: Israel looks to have committed war crimes. Atrocious violence at the very least.

Anonymous said...

zionist alert:

Deucaon:

'And what exactly justified the war that HAMAS started in the first place? What do you expect Israel to do? '

welll Mr Deuacon, HAMAS DIDNT start the slaughter, i which > 1300 palestinians mostloy civilians and about a dozen israelis(mostly military were killed. Here isan examintgaion of what reallyhappened!


'And Joshua said to the army, . . . “The Lord has given you the city. The city shall be under solemn ban: everything in it belongs to the Lord. No one is to be spared except the prostitute Rahab.”

– Joshua, 6:17

'Throughout modern history powerful nations have waged war against relatively weak neighbors with the expectation that they would both win and somehow benefit from having done so–as they usually do. But they also realize the need to justify their aggression by seeming as if they are somehow threatened by their victims. They themselves are presumably under attack, but fortunately big and powerful enough to win in the end. This fraudulent cultivation of public support was perhaps best (and most laughably) illustrated by Hitler’s frenzied speeches denouncing Poland’s military threat against Germany in order to justify its 1939 invasion'

....Here the sequence seems plain once the Nov. 5 Israeli incursion is taken into account: (1) an Israeli incursion early on Nov. 4; (2) Hamas’s rocket attack later in the day; and (3) a second Israeli incursion the next day. Like a typical starter motor, Israel’s two incursions put the cycle of retaliatory strikes back in motion again seven weeks preceding the December 27 air attack. '
...
Barak Ravid’s disclosure in his December 27 Haaretz article should be no surprise–that Israel’s defense minister Ehud Barak instructed the IDF “to prepare the operation over six months ago.” Barak was said to explain to fellow IDF strategists, “Although the lull would allow Hamas to prepare for a showdown with Israel, the Israeli army needed time to prepare as well.” It accordingly seems more than likely that everything starting with the June peace accord was planned on a contingency basis well in advance. Of primary importance in reverse order of conception was the invasion of Gaza, whose occurrence would be most opportune preceding the September 20, 2008, U.S. inauguration (thus providing the international “surprise” predicted by Vice President Biden, if a couple months earlier than predicted). Then in reverse sequence came a suitable provocation scheduled in time to renew the cycle of violence needed to stir up public support for the invasion (and what better date than the U.S. election?). '

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/justified-slaughter-the-gaza-story-since-june-2008/

SO Israel began the onesided slaughter, AND had planned it months ahead.


Brian

Neal said...

olching,

My point was that a cease fire did not halt rocket fire or violence. That being the case, the Israelis did what any self-respecting people would do: they used their military.

Compare the response to the US decision to conquer Afghanistan and Iraq - with the help of the holier than thou British - after an attack on American civilians. Those responses caused far more damage over a far wider area and killed far more civilians indiscriminately than anything the Israelis have done. In fact, the hypocrisy of singling out Israel speaks volumes about how bigoted Europeans are.

olching said...

Neal,

What kind of bullshit justification is "they've done worse"? How low can one sink? We are talking about Israel's actions in Gaza.

We can gladly talk about the disgusting policies in Afghanistan another time and perhaps we'll even agree, but at the moment what we are discussing are Israel's actions in Gaza. Nothing you cite justifies the actions of Israel (by the look of things) using weapons in civilian areas gratuitously when they should not be used there. Any comment on that? Try not to mention Sudan, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, in your reply.

Bock the Robber said...

Neal -- You're quite wrong. When people claimed to be bombing Britain in the name of Ireland, the British military didn't attack our cities and kill our civilizans as the Israelis have done to the Palestinians.

Yes, there were injustices, but we never experienced the savagery inflicted on Gaza by the Israeli military.

Anonymous said...

Neil clark & friends.
Two pieces of informaiton, heaerd it from Muhammad Hasanin Haykal.. look him up on Wikepedia...

1. The meeting between EU leaders and Israeli officials was suggested, campaigned for, and organized by TONY BLAIR, the aim is to give immunity to israel terrorist leaders in the anticipated war crime investigations.

2. The intensive damage was deliberate, aimed at controlling palestinians through the much needed rebuilding projects.., Just listen to Tony Blair vision on building palestinian economy as a foundation for peace..

Dan, portsmouth said...

Here is what Israeli journalist wrote in an Israeli paper:

This war, perhaps more than its predecessors, is exposing the true deep veins of Israeli society. Racism and hatred are rearing their heads, as is the impulse for revenge and the thirst for blood. The "inclination of the commander" in the Israel Defense Forces is now "to kill as many as possible".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054158.html

Zionists write one thing in their papers & say something different here....

Deucaon said...

Neil Clark:

Sense of right and wrong? If "most ordinary people" do condemn Israelis for defending themselves then "most ordinary people" have no sense of right or wrong. I'd like to think that "most ordinary people" have more sense than that but I cannot speak on their behalf since (unlike you) I am not a self-declared representative of the people.

Olching:

Oh, I get it. Somehow the IDF incorrectly bombed HAMAS. Apparently (according to you) there is a correct way to bomb soldiers who are using civilian structures and civilians as shields. This war was just that, a war. Civilians die in wars... especially when one side uses them as a buffer.

Anonymous:

The figure of a thousand civilians dead is most probably a lie. No doubt HAMAS has used the same propaganda tactic as Izetbegovic and the KLA by declaring dead soldiers as dead civilians.

olching said...

Deucaon:

Oh, I get it. Somehow the IDF incorrectly bombed HAMAS. Apparently (according to you) there is a correct way to bomb soldiers who are using civilian structures and civilians as shields. This war was just that, a war. Civilians die in wars... especially when one side uses them as a buffer.

Whether or not this is a just war is open to debate; but in any case it's irrelevant, because what we are discussing is not jus ad bellum but jus in bello, i.e. the conduct in war.

And there is a simple fact: The use of white phosphorus in civilian areas constitutes a war crime. Judging by the dodging exercises of Regev and others, it's not looking good. And you're defending these crimes. Lovely.

You obviously think the use of white phosphorus and fragmentary bombs in civilian areas is justified. I wonder why. I suspect you think Palestinians are not worth much.

Bad news for you and the criminal IDF though, because international law disagrees: The use of said weapons in said areas is indeed illegal. Let's hope the people in charge pay for this.

Anonymous said...

Dan, Portsmouth said:
"Zionists write one thing in their papers & say something different here...."

Dan, don't forget that Haaretz is a moderate and liberal Israeli paper. As such it doesn't necessarily reflect current majority opinion within Israel. (It certainly doesn't speak for the war criminals in the Israeli government and military!)

Still, it should be remembered that at least SOME Israelis are decent people who are as sickened by what has happened in Gaza as everyone else is...

Bock the Robber said...

Deucaon -- Yes. There is a correct way to deal with enemies when there are civilians around them. Read the Geneva Conventions.

You cannot bomb your way through civilians to get at your enemy. That's a war crime.

I know that's inconvenient for you but there's no getting around it.

neil craig said...

Perhaps the enemies of Israel should consider whether they share responsibility. The war was caused by Hamas continuing to fire rockets at Israeli civilians. You may say Israel should have turned the other cheek but cannot deny that had Hamas decided to stop firing there would have been no war.

So why did Hamas start the war & refuse to cease fire on day one. Not because they hoped to win but because they hoped to get on western TV & ultimately to get more "aid" much of which disappears into the hands of the gunmen. It is exactly the same formula, though perhaps not quite as blatant at the western end, as when US envoy Richard Holbrook openly told the Bosnian Moslem Nazis that they needed a market place shelling to justify more intervention - which duly happened with our media censoring any mention of the fact that UN forensic experts proved it came from a mortar within Moslem lines. Western aid, in its current form, merely makes terrorism & lack of concern about Palestinian civilians a paying proposition.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Help the Police.
Most wanted terrorists

http://www.wanted.org.il/shaul_mofaz_en.htm

Neal said...

Bock the Robber,

With due respect, your country, in response to an attack on the US - and not even the UK -, joined the US in attacking Iraq, killing only God knows how many people, and sent troops also to Afghanistan. Neither country had attacked the US. The number of killed is not even known within the 10's of thousands of people. So, you must be kidding.

In my book, what your country has done is on a completely different scale of being problematic. As for the Israelis, if they did not act, the rockets would be falling on their entire country, as Hamas intended to do.

Bock the Robber said...

Neal -- My country has no involvement in the invasion of Iraq.

Dan, portsmouth said...

Anon;

My point was, those stupid Zionist over here still lying for Israel, when Israeli themselves are admitting breaking the ceasefire, targetting civilians, using cluster bombs.. etc..
Even Mark Regev admitted Israel broke the ceasefire... but look at comments here to see people still repeating lies that passed use-by-dates.

olching said...

And even if it had Bock, Neal's 'argument' is still one of the sicker arguments in the bag. Because the UK were involved in the Iraq war (which incidentally I think everyone on this board opposed), this somehow gives Israel a carte blanche to act as animals in Gaza. In which case, can I excuse the behaviour of the UK government (not that I want to) by referring to an even worse situation in Rwanda in 1994? Does that work?

What kind of sick mind justifies war crimes by pointing at other war crimes, illegal wars, and atrocities?

Anonymous said...

I don't know how these zionists have got the nerve to talk about the UK, USA attacking Iraq. Who were the architects of this fucking war - 10 fucking years before 9/11, in itself nothing to do with Iraq. ##PNAC##. Who is PNAC ? Who is JINSA. Why were these people heavily involved in designing then lobbying for Iraq to be dismembered?
Britain and American boys were sent to fight a war for Israel. It was fuck all to do with oil, al qeda, Bin Laden, Blairs 45 minutes bollock, or Bush's 9/11.
It's unbelievable that these prats on here / other blogs keep up the facade of pretending to "not know" about the Israel Lobby/Iraq.

Neal said...

Bock the Robber,

So you are not British?

Bock the Robber said...

No

neil craig said...

"What kind of sick mind justifies war crimes by pointing at other war crimes, illegal wars, and atrocities?"

One infinitely less sick than that of those who support the very worst war crimes, atrocities, genocide, child sex slavery & dissections & then criticse other races claiming to be horrified by a much smaller numver of accidental killings in a lawful war of self defence.

olching said...

Sorry, Neil (Craig), but now you're rambling. Tu Quoque arguments are right up there with the lowest of the low. No one has "support the very worst war crimes, atrocities, genocide, child sex slavery & dissections & then criticse other races [sic] claiming to be horrified by a much smaller numver of accidental killings in a lawful war of self defence."

In any case, let's face it: 24 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets since 2001, over a thousand in the last Gaza war alone. Do you regard Palestinian civilians with such contempt that you do not give a shit about them at all?

In any case, I'll repeat: You and Neal are scraping the barrel by pointing the finger in other directions. We are talking about Israel's attack on Gaza and nothing Hamas has done comes close to it and nothing anyone else has done is relevant. Let's talk about the IDF, because this is what this thread is about. If you have something to say on the IDF's behaviour, please say it (for example, try not to make a tit of yourself by defending the use of white phosphorus in civilian areas); the rest is irrelevant.

Bock the Robber said...

The killings of the Palestinians were not accidental.

When you knowingly blast your way through civilians to get at your enemy. It's a war crime.

when you attack a compound full of food and medicine, it's a war crime.

When you shell a school full of refugees, it's a war crime.

When you destroy civilian infrastructure, industry and farmland, it's a war crime.

Other crimes by other people at other times are not relevant to this crime, done by israel today.


Incidentally, the Israeli navy continues to kill Palestinian civilians by shelling the coastline. Israeli recreational snipers continue to shoot Palestinian children as one might shoot an animal for sport.

Wasn't that the sort of thing Israel accused Hamas of?

Wasn't that the sort of thing that justified slaughtering 1300 Palestinians?

neil craig said...

Factually wrong Olching.

Short, Livingston & many other members of the anti-Israeli movement did undeniably "support the very worst war crimes, atrocities, genocide, child sex slavery & dissections". Their support of the Nazis in Kosovo is a matter of record. I will happily acknowledge that Tony Benn & George Galloway had an honourable record & have repeatedly acknowledged that Neil Clark has too).

These people are proven Nazis & it is simply impossible that their opposition to Israel or that of others unwilling to dissociate themselves from Nazism, can be motivated in any way at all by human decency & they aren't.

You do not get to rule out genocide by your pals as not counting, let alone claim it never happened as you do, any more than I can legitimately demand you denounce Hamas' genocidal use of rockets if I were also to refuse to comment on Israel's role in the resulting war.

Bock the Robber said...

Hamas rockets killed 12 people in the last eight years. To call that a genocide is to belittle the victims of real genocides, including the Jews of Europe.

Oddly, Israel's killing of 1300 people in three weeks doesn't count as a genocide in your world.

I think that reveals a great deal about your attitude to Palestinian lives.

Anyway, it now seems that Israel won't be able to escape an international investigation of their crimes in Gaza.

We might yet see a few Israeli generals in the hague, and maybe even a foreign minister.

It was a serious miscalculation to firebomb the humanitarian supplies depot while the UN Secretary-General was visiting Israel.

I'd say somebody's arse is getting kicked for that little slip.

olching said...

Neil (Craig):

This is not a thread by or about Claire Short or Ken Livingstone (and neither are National Socialists in any case, regardless of what you think; they do not espouse Nazi ideology, so drop the emotive crap). This is a thread on Neil Clark's blogsite on the destruction of Gaza, and despite all yours and Neal's best efforts to derail it and distract from the actual content, just bear in mind that I won't be responding to off-topic hijacking issues in future.

You say...

"You do not get to rule out genocide by your pals as not counting, let alone claim it never happened as you do, any more than I can legitimately demand you denounce Hamas' genocidal use of rockets if I were also to refuse to comment on Israel's role in the resulting war."

I've read over this and I don't follow. Are you suggesting that I make light of (unrelated) issues in the Balkans in the 1990s? Surely not, and you know otherwise. Are you also suggesting that - despite all evidence to the contrary - I see Hamas rockets launched into Israeli civilians areas as somehow legitimate? Surely not. What I've said is that calling Hamas' use of rockets is by no stretch of the imagination "genocidal". It is totally insignificant compared to Israel's actions in Gaza. You have yet to express any kind of empathy with over one thousand dead civilians and the families of those victims and the injured, who have been targeted in what we can only call collective punishment; not to mention the real potential that Israel has committed war crimes. You'll still be standing up for them. I wish you'd reconsider.

neil craig said...

Genocide is the deliberate killing of people purely on national/racial/religious lines to alter the democgtaphics of the area. You may not like it & may wish to invent another one but that is the definition in law.

Hamas' rockets were intended to kill purely on racial grounds w with absolutely no other intent & no attempt to produce only, or even primarily, military casualites. Therefore what you are defending was definitely genocide.

Despite the lies, which represent the very highest standard of honesty of the anti-Israel movement & have been denounced by all honest people, Israel was not atempting to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Indeed, as you know perfectly well, they made prodigious efforts to minimise civilian casualties in a manner which makes them thousands of times more humanitarian than our own government. Hamas, of course, made no effecrt to minimise Palestinian casualties & indeed appear to have killed civilians who objected to their houses being comandeered & thus themselves used as human shields.

I ask you to acknowledge that the claim that Israel were deliberately trying for the genocide of all Gazans is simply an obscene racist Nazi lie & that any part of the anti_jewish movement which does not acknowledge that are obscene Nazis. Moreover that the only people deliberately killing civilians were Hamas - killing both Jews & Palestinians - & that it is impossible for anybody opposed to genocide, as properly defined, not to be far louder in their denunciations of those guilty of it in both Hamas & our own government than of Israelis defending themselves.

Bock the Robber said...

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and face up to the fact that Israel committed a war crime in Gaza.

Israel murdered 1300 people in Gaza: men, women and children.

Al your other talk is irrelevant.

This thread is now going round in circles.

neil craig said...

Killing in self defence is not murder. If it was legitimate self defence then it, by definition, wasn't criminal, unlike the atrocities committed by our own government including wholly corrupt, genocidal, child raping Nazi savages like Livingston & Short whom none of their anti-Jewish supporters will say a word against.

Whether Hamas are telling the truth about the number of dead is, at the very least, unproven.

I take some exception to your claim that anybody who opposes genocide must be "feeling sorry for themself".

If the thread is going round in circles it is because none of the supporters of these Nazis can face a fact.

Anonymous said...

neil craig:

'One infinitely less sick than that of those who support the very worst war crimes, atrocities, genocide, ..'

which is what you are doing Craig...with infinite hypocrisy!

But you are in equally bad company: the BBC prefers to serve Israel and prevent any aid for gazan victims.

Brian

Anonymous said...

neil craig:

'Genocide is the deliberate killing of people purely on national/racial/religious lines to alter the democgtaphics of the area. You may not like it & may wish to invent another one but that is the definition in law.'

ah yes. and the palestinians are seen as being a 'demographic threat' to the jewish state...right Neil?

Brian

neil craig said...

Bock if you believe the only reason anybody could oppose genocide is because they are "feeling sorry for yourself" then I feel sorry for you.

Israel engaged in a legitimate defencive war. Where is your condemnation of your Hamas friends for using Palestinians as human shields?

And where, may I ask yet again, is any word from anybody about what Israel should have done to etop its civilians being killed. Nobody who refuses to answer that question has any right to condemn Jews for doing what any other nation would & indeed has.

Bock the Robber said...

Hamas are not my friends. They're fanatics with a homicidal mindset quite similar to your own. However, only one of the homicidal factions possesses F16s and phosphorus shells.

No matter how appalling Hamas might be, it doesn't justify what you did to the Palestinian civilians whom you slaughtered without mercy. That was a war crime and there's no way of slithering out of it.

ablentif said...

Personally, I'm still waiting for verified casualty figures, and confirmation as to their combatant status.

I don't believe Hamas ("1,300 innocent civilians!"), and I don't believe Melanie Phillips either ("much less, and 85% of them were combatants") - but if the initially hysterical reporting of the Jenin "massacre" teaches us anything, it's that we should be extremely sceptical of casualty claims until the smoke has cleared.

Both sides have a vested interest in exaggeration (and both sides have already been caught out issuing dodgy dossiers in both video and printed form), relying on the fact that there are plenty of useful idiots prepared to recycle their propaganda entirely uncritically while misusing words like "genocide".

On which latter subject, surely you'd have to kill one hell of a lot more than 1,300 people out of a population a thousand times bigger for that charge to stick? Indeed, if Israel is guilty of attempted genocide, isn't its military equally guilty of flagrant incompetence for doing such a feeble job despite massive advantages in weaponry?

neil craig said...

Ablentiff it is not just the numbers - for it to be genocide the INTENT has to be to kill people who are not shooting at you & doing so because of their ethnicity.

This is why D-Day was not genocide & Wounded Knee was though a hundred times more died in the former.

It is also why Hamas' rocket attacks are genocide while Israel's counter attack, where they have gone to far greater lengths to minimise bystander casualties than we did on D-Day or elsewhere, isn't.

Bock your claim that I personally, or even the Israelis slaughtered the palestinians without mercy goes far beyond hyperbole. It is a lie. The Israelis (I wasn't present) certainly could have done so but instead have made enormous efforts to minimise casualties. I do not see that anybody denying that can nhave an honest motivation. I agree with you about how murderous Hamas are - nonethelss you are giving them support.

Yet again again I have to ask of anybody attacking Israel to say what alternative, that would have stopped the genocidal attacks on their civilians, they should have done.

Anybody who cannot answer that cannot honourably say Israel are wrong.

Bock the Robber said...

Israel killed 1300 people trying to get at Hamas. That is a war crime.

You are a denier, and therefore you are complicit in the crime.

It's that simple.

neil craig said...

Bock you have made it clear that you are in no way influenced by mere evidence & facts. I have explained the facts to you in ways which a 7 year old child could understand if they were in any way honest & indeed you have made no attempt to dispute the facts. It is also highly unlikely that the 1,300 dead hamas claomed is in any way truthful or that the overwhelming majority of them were not fighters. If you have any evidence to the contrary pelase produce it - I forgot you don't do evidence you only do lies/propaganda.

You are a wholly corrupt genocidal Nazi - a child raping animal personally complicit in Auschwitz & whom every single person in the anti-Jewish movement who is not a Nazi is going to immediately denounce as the piece of filth you are.

Its that simple.

No offence.

Bock the Robber said...

I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

neil craig:

'Israel engaged in a legitimate defencive war. Where is your condemnation of your Hamas friends for using Palestinians as human shields?'

Israels 'war' was a one sided turkey shoot, to regain the honor lost in being trounced by Hizbollah. What they were defending was honor...not that they succeeded!

Hamas never used human shields, any more than did Hizbollah BUT Israel did!

'Palestinian farmers from the neighbourhood of al-Atatra, about 10 kilometres north of the centre of Gaza City, said Israeli ground troops arrived in the area on January 7.

Samir Abu Dayer, 59, a farmer, said soldiers occupied several hectares of farmland behind his house. The fields that before the war produced olives, oranges and lemons are now a large stretch of pale yellow sand and broken irrigation pipes.

A sandpit roughly the size of an Olympic pool, with four walls about two metres high pushed together by bulldozers, dominates one field.

According to Mr Dayer, and several other residents whose houses bordered the field, Israeli troops quickly evacuated the surrounding houses. "They entered my house with a tank," Mr Dayer said. "I was told to come outside with my family."

Told to strip to his underwear, Mr Dayer said his hands were tied behind his back with white plastic cables, then he was moved into the sandpit area.

Mohammed Madhoun, 22, a media and public relations student at the Al-Aqsa University, whose home is across a laneway from Mr Dayer's home, said he and his parents were ordered to do the same.

"I was told to take off my clothes by one soldier, told to put them on again by another, and then take them off again. My hands were tied and I was taken into this area," Mr Madhoun said, pointing to the sandpit.

Ali Ajramy, 39, a tailor, thrust his hands forward to show the sores on his wrists caused by plastic cables

"I was taken into this prison," he said. "And I was told to be quiet and kneel down."

The three were among about 85 men who were moved into the sandpit area and gathered at the western end.

They said the Israeli troops then took position around perimeter of the sandpit area and began to engage with Palestinian resistance fighters. "We kept our heads down, we didn't move for two days," Mr Madhoun said. "There was lots of shooting over our heads but I don't know where it was coming from. We were given blankets and food."

Empty cans of Israeli rations litter the sandpit. The soldiers dug several foxholes.

"After two days we were taken to Beersheva, in Israel," Mr Dayer said. "We were there for five days and then brought back to Gaza and freed." He showed Herald a release form in Hebrew, given when they were returned to Gaza.

An Israeli spokesman told Herald it did not comment on operational matters. But he stressed the Israeli military does not use anyone as "human shields".

The deputy director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, Jaber Jishah, said it appeared a textbook example of human shields.

"We are investigating this very thoroughly," he said.
'
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/27/1232818435831.html


Brian

Anonymous said...

'You are a wholly corrupt genocidal Nazi - a child raping animal personally complicit in Auschwitz & whom every single person in the anti-Jewish movement who is not a Nazi is going to immediately denounce as the piece of filth you are.'

what a pity Neil cant expend this righteous outrage against the nazi isaelis, and their Holocaust against th palestinians. its not an event 60 years ago.

Brian

Anonymous said...

neil Craig:

'Killing in self defence is not murder'

This is his idea of 'self defence:

'More than 100 members of one extended Gazan family were 'allegedly' herded by Israeli soldiers into a house that was subsequently shelled, killing up to 30 people and leaving others wounded and living with the corpses for three days.

The alleged atrocity, denied by Israel, was one of several for which the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights yesterday demanded “credible and independent” investigations, and raised the possibility of Israeli leaders being prosecuted for war crimes. Though her comments were addressed at both Israel and Hamas, Navi Pillay said that scores of people, including children, had been killed or wounded in “Israel's totally unacceptable strikes”.'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5485150.ece


Brian

Anonymous said...

we raise Current israeli war crimes...Neil Craig: goes back 60 years to resurrect jewish corpses and make their stench cling to us.THATS DEPERATE!

Brian

neil craig said...

That story merely represents tha absolute pinnacle of honesty of which you & the anti-Israel movement are capable. That is to say it is a lie.

Next you will be justifying the Holocaust because Jews were said to be sacrificing Christian children you ebscene Nazi filth.

Neil Calrk I ahve previously asked you to amend your original comments of outrage on that alleged atrocity to take account of the fact that there is no evidence it happened & a lot that it didn't.

Anonymous said...

neil craig getting hysterical and no longer able to spell straight!

'Neil Calrk I ahve previously asked you to amend your original comments of outrage on that alleged atrocity to take account of the fact that there is no evidence it happened & a lot that it didn't'

Thats called censorship, Neil Craig.

You desperation is reaching hysterical depths few zionists descend to.

The shelling of the house which Gazans had been herded into happened and was actually reported....Yet you would want this incident to be wiped from the pages of history... just as you support the zionist wiping of the palestinians off the map.

Brian

Bock the Robber said...

Mr Craig seems to be drunk, to judge by his typing. That would explain much about his aggression.

Anonymous said...

mhttp://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm