Tuesday, February 13, 2007

A Serious Matter

The Times, the oldest newspaper in the country, has long been regarded as a paper of record. Lies and misinformation in other newspapers should of course be rigorously challenged, but in the Times when a writer puts forward information which he or she either knows is false, or has no evidence to back up the assertion, it is arguably even more serious, given the paper's historical reputation.

Stephen Pollard has done that today.

In his bitter tirade against members of the British Jewish community who don't share his opinions, he twice referred to the late Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic as a 'genocidal butcher'.

Pollard has been asked to provide evidence to back up this claim on several occasions before and has failed to do so.
He needs to be held to account.

If like me, you feel strongly about this matter you can contact The Times editor, Robert Thomson either by email at editor@thetimes.co.uk, or at 1, Pennington Street, London E88 ITT.
The Times comment editor, Daniel Finkelstein can also be contacted at that address and by email at daniel.finkelstein@thetimes.co.uk
You can also send a letter to letters@thetimes.co.uk.
(If you'd like to contact Pollard directly to ask him about his sources, then his email address is stephen.pollard@cne.org)

Pollard must either produce evidence to show that Milosevic was a 'genocidal butcher',(Milosevic's four-year trial at The Hague certainly didn't come up with any)or else desist from making the claim in a public arena.

And unless Pollard can back up his allegation, The Times should print a retraction to say that their writer's claim was without foundation.

17 comments:

ben said...

The world won't be fooled by the unproven claims Shephen Pollard and the Times peddle. How dare anyone suggest he was a genocidal butcher when his trial didn't finish. It's like accusing Hitler of responsibility for the holocaust.

ben said...

The world won't be fooled by the unproven claims Shephen Pollard and the Times peddle. How dare anyone suggest he was a genocidal butcher when his trial didn't finish. It's like accusing Hitler of responsibility for the holocaust.

Neil Clark said...

Ho Ho! My sides are splitting.
What an idiotic analogy, ben.
The holocaust is an established historical fact. Milosevic's 'genocide' most certainly isn't.

grapesofplenty said...

You're wasting your time advising people to write in to Finklestein, Neil. He Kamm and Pollard are all part of the same smug, mutually adoring let's lick-each-others arses neo-con gang who will be holding each others hands as they lead us all to Armageddon.
But writing in to The Times editor is a good suggestion which I hope many people will do. Of course, he'll be a Murdoch man and generally supportive of the pro-war line, but I did notice recently how Times sales have been dropping off badly and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks Finkelstein has just gone a little bit too far with the shameless promotion of his little pals.

Coisty said...

To make matters worse a new law has been proposed at the EU to punish genocide denial throughout the continent for three years. This genocide denial would include the war in the Balkans. If it is so obvious and demonstrable that genocide occurred such laws shouldn't be needed. Therefore we can conclude that the motivation is to crush dissent. The EU needs an American First Amendment.

1defender said...

The Times will publish your comment as long as you think exactly the same as they do. Marko Attila Hoare does so he's on the website. There have been no postings of dissent. The editor simply refuses to publish them. This is what's called democracy and free speech! What a joke.

The Exile said...

I hope that you are amused to learn that Stephen Pollard's website has been pulled because the account has not been paid.

That's what the error message says, anyway.

Neil Craig said...

If anybody really wants to get heavy with a newspaper the option is to write to their advertisers, saying how often you used their product & asking, in a vey polite manner, that they intercede with the editor to get him to retract untruths.

Patrick said...

Milosevic's 'genocide' was well and truly laid bare on BBC4 last night.

Its was planned, and it was systematic. From what i saw the case against Milosevic was made by Milsevic himself.

GUILTY as charged.

Neil Clark said...

Really Patrick?
Why didn't the evidence you speak of come to light in the four years of the trial then?

1defender said...

Last night on BBC Channel 4 we saw how that nice person Mr. Nice did his job so nicely and got a very nice knighthood for it. I have never seen a judge (Robinson) turn and say to the accused "I am disgusted with you". He constantly turned off Milosevic's microphone. He interrupted his line of questioning when he felt like it. It gave a true picture of the Hague and what an appalling place it is. It is clear that they make the rules up as they go along.

Far from proving the case they showed themselves as completely incompetent. Four long years and nothing. They had to add indictments (illegal as far as I know) after he was in detention because they didn't have anything to frame him on.

Hey but that nice Mr. Nice or should I say Lord Nice was happy with the outcome. Good thing Milosevic died with the help of the Hague inquisitors because nice Mr/Lord Nice couldn't see an end to it.

Total propaganda. Total rubbish. Those of you who think like Patrick should watch the programme again and this time concentrate!

Patrick said...

Lets see now...kosavas killed in Kosovo, rounded up, executed, buried, dug up and found in a river in Serbia.

Orders given in code in telephone conversations between high ranking Milosevic aids and himself.

The list goes on, esp his links with the scorpians BUT its is pointless as you are living in a Paragram, for you the truth is some how negotiable.

This is what the truth is, Milosevic and the rest of the National Socialist Serbian elite, used systematic killing to drive fear into other ethnic groups, so they fled (3 million did) and gave up territory to serbs. (Yes the Serbs suffered too, But that does not excuse the use of genocide to drive out and/or kill an ethnic group)

War is when one side or both, seeks to conquer or submit to its will by the use of force, this was not war.
This was not the political intentions of the National Socialist Serbs. This was the use of fear thru murder, and its very scale says that by objective truth it is inconceivable that it was not orchestrated with direct or indirect orders from belgrade.

Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Contents


Guilty as charged.

Neil Clark said...

If it's all so obvious, why was the charge of genocide not included in Milosevic's Kosovo indictment, Patrick?
http://www.un.org/icty/glance/milosevic.htm


Re Srebrenica, as I've mentioned on numerous occasions, an exhaustive Dutch govt report found no evidence of Milosevic's complicity in the killings.
You may find following interesting:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1323864,00.html

Qaz said...

The indictment was not split!!

SO come on put your real cards on the table. what are you saying?

Are you saying Milosevic was not guilty as there was NO genocide?

Or there was a Genocide as Milosevic had nothing to do with it?

1, Fact 1, There was a genocide, here it is again "Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"

(and No I am not bothered what the post-modernist, Neo-Marxists have to say at the Observer, and No I don't buy any newspaper before you start!)

I have served on a jury, and I have acquitted, I know what you are looking for when looking for truth.
You are looking for the story that best explains the facts (btw Facts are value-free, just like science should be)

You are not going to get a piece of paper or a video with Milosevic brandishing a gun or signing a piece of paper saying, "Go and kill as many Kosovan Muslims as you need to frighten the others away", and even If you did you would not accept it (and neither would I, as it would probably be fabricated)

SO fact 2, It was planned (intercepts and evidence in court, best explains the language used on those intercepts)

SO who has the capacity to plan? the arms, the means, the logistics, the timing? the place? a few paramilitary,s on a bender? a few bent angry police men? or locals wanting a few extra fields from their neighbours?

I think the diary of the chief of security gave the game away. It was planned in Milosevic,s office. So if it was planned there don't you think he would have known about it? and if it was a few renegades, he would have acted to stop them?

Its called Linear thinking! and that leads to the only conclusion. GUILTY.

My grandfather was one of the first troops to reach Bergen Belsen concentration camp.He paid for it all the rest of his life, in alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction, family breakdown and night terrors. I promised him that I would not turn my face to evil (thats if you can believe in evil in your post-modernist pinter world)...you should learn to do the same.

I pity you.

Peter Robert North said...

"There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions... The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one...": -late Islamist Fascist SDA Bosnian party leader, Alija Izetbegovic from his book, "Islamic Declaration".

"Genocide is a natural phenomenon, in harmony with the societal and mythologically divine nature. Genocide is not only permitted, it is also recommended, even commanded by the word of the Almighty, whenever it is useful for the survival or the restoration of the kingdom of the chosen nation, or for the preservation and spreading of its one and only correct faith." --late Croatian neo-Ustasha Nazi President Franjo Tudjman, from his book, "Wastelands of Historical Reality".
===============================================================================================================================================================================



First of all let me introduce myself. I am an anti-fascist/anti-Nazi freelance writer and researcher who is half Jewish (on my mother's side).My mother's entire family was murdered by European Nazis during WW2.My mother was almost starved to death in a WW2 Nazi concentration camp.

I have studied the Yugoslav conflict quite extensively for nearly 16 years as well as WW2 history of Yugoslavia and have reams of documented evidence in my possession relating to the key political players in the lead up to the outbreak of war in June 1991 both in Yugoslavia and the West.

Based on my own independent research and original documentation I have viewed over the last 16 years, I have no hesitation in saying that the REAL war criminals are Western politicians like Kohl, Genscher, Schroeder, Kinkel, Fischer, Ruehe, Blair,Cook,Short,Robertson,Solana,
Chirac,Clinton,Albright,Berger,
Clark,Holbrooke et al, whom supported the REAL genocidal Balkan Nazis:

People like Tudjman,Izetbegovic, and the fascist heroin drug running, child sex slavery racketeering KLA thugs of Thaci,Ceku,Haradinaj and Demaci: people proud of their Nazi and fascist beliefs and backgrounds; people who had no qualms about putting into print their PUBLIC admiration of the genocidal policies of Adolf Hitler, Hajj Amin al Husseini and Ante Pavelic years before the outbreak of war in June 1991.


For a background on Franjo Tudjman and his resurrection of the WW2 Croatian genocidal Ustasha responsible for the murders of between 750,000 to 1.2 million Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, see below:

Hiding Genocide:Croatia has resumed its "liquidation" of Serbs, while arguing that "ethnic cleansing" is a Serbian creation...

and

For Serbians, Fears of a German Axis Rise For The Third Time This Century

Croatia,at a Key Strategic Crossroad, Builds Militarily and Geographically


The BBC, over the last 17 years, has covered up all of these Balkan Nazis' specific intentions to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing PRIOR to the outbreak of war in Yugoslavia in June 1991. The BBC instead of appraising the public of the facts, deliberately and sytematically LIED through their teeth about Milosevic's specifically tolerant and pro-multi-ethnic, pro-multicultural speech at the "Field Of the Blackbirds" in June 1989.


Naturally of the above being done to cover up Germany's role in instigating the war back in 1988 when Chancellor Kohl secretly met with Tudjman to discuss a plan on forcefully breaking up the then existing Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

See T.W. Carr
Associate Publisher, Defense & Foreign Affairs Publications. London: GERMAN AND US INVOLVEMENT IN THE BALKANS: A CAREFUL COINCIDENCE OF NATIONAL POLICIES?


People like Izetbegovic and Tudjman who made PUBLIC statements and writings BEFORE war broke out advocating genocide and ethnic cleansing and praising Adolf Hitler or Islamist Fascism.People like Izetbegovic who served as auxiliaries to the SS during WW2 and never denied it but defended themselves on account of being "young and naive".


Anti-fascist researcher Dave Emory has on numerous occasions exposed Izetbegovic's WW2 Nazi SS auxiliary-recruiting background via the pro-Nazi Islamist "Young Muslims" organization modelled on the notorious Egyptian "Muslim Brotherhood" of WW2, led by notorious Hitler-collaborater Hajj Amin al-Husseini.


See the summary of Dave Emory's weekly radio broadcast on WFMU in the US at the following link:


"The Life and Times of Hasan Cengic":Izetbegovic's WW2 Nazi SS Handzar SS auxiliary recruiting background via the Islamist "Young Muslims" pro-Nazi organization in Bosnia from early 1943 onwards...


The actual radio broadcast can be found here (you will need the "RealPlayer" program to listen to the broadcast):

Broadcast of The Life and Times of Hasan Cengic


See also
What really happened in Bosnia?Were the Serbs the criminal aggressors, as the official story claims, or were they the victims?



Since a couple of readers on this discussion forum have mentioned the BBC, it is important to examine the BBC's credibility as an impartial,independent, unbiased broadcaster. Based on documented evidence available in the public domain over the last 20 years, it is now clear that the BBC cannot be trusted to tell the truth. In many ways the BBC has proven itself to be an establishment propaganda instrument.

When the BBC seeks to justify a particular establishment foreign policy, they never provide documented PROOF for anything they claim: only Goebbels style "Big Lie" assertions and fabricated "evidence".

They also utilize the well worn adversarial propaganda trick known as "false opposition" whereby they feign opposition to a particular establishment foreign policy (eg., as in the case of the Iraq war and the WMD red herring)but in actuality are promoting the position and real goals of the establishment foreign policy elite.

The BBC has a reputation for brazenly lying through its teeth about virtually everything except perhaps the weather and sporting results.


If Milosevic was such a "genocidal butcher" there wouuld have been ZERO need for the BBC,ITN,ABC,SBS,CNN,CBC,CBS,NBC and the rest of the Western media to deliberately LIE about his speech by ludicrously claiming that he was "inciting and whipping up Serbs into a nationalist frenzy".

See How Politicians, the Media, and Scholars Lied about Milosevic's 1989 Kosovo Speech:
A review of the evidence


Historical & Investigate Research: Articles on the civil wars in the
former Yugoslavia


The late Alija Izetbegovic, former illegtimate "president" of Bosnia Herzegovina,illegal ursuper of power in 1990 from the duly elected Bosnian muslim leader, Mr.Fikret Abdic ,is the one behind the death camp fraud (he admitted it on his death bed) along with a multi-million dollar funded American "public relations" & lobbying firm (i.e. Ruder Finn - who also worked as a lobbying group in Washington on behalf of the Islamist Nazi terrorist KLA and Tudjman's HDZ Fascist neo-Ustasha racist government).

Izetbegovic, the man described by ITN,BBC,CNN,the Guardian et al, as a:

"secular muslim and moderate democrat committed to a multi-ethnic Western style liberal democracy" was in fact committed to genocide of all non-muslims.

Well before the outbreak of war in 1992, Izetbegovic PUBLICLY announced his commitment to genocide by having his version of Hitler's Mein Kampf (his 1970 manifesto, "The Islamic Declaration": a call for Jihad and the extermination of non-Muslims, re-published in 1990 as part of his election campaign).

"Izetbegovic appointed the Muslim National Council (MNC) of Bosnia to achieve long-term aspirations, to create a Muslim state in the Balkans. This state would defend the Muslim interests throughout Yugoslavia, i.e. Sandzak, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Croatia, Serbia). “Rise brother Muslims, there are enough of us to accomplish our goals, whom the Muslim and those of Muslim blood will not betray. This time will never come again. Now is the opportunity to realize the dream of every Muslim” [qouted in Doc Center, 2002 from the Bosnian Muslim magazine VOX]. Among other objectives the MNC was working for were the creation of a Muslim state within the borders of present day B&H and formation of the Muslim Armed Forces.

"In October 1991, the MNC defined its political platform:

“The day is nearing when the announced Islamic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will be proclaimed. The date, which every Muslim in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sandzak [Ra┼íka] is ardently waiting for has been known for a long time to be the 31st December. There are some indications that the Serbs might oppose this historic event...Every individual Serb must be aware of the responsibility of the entire nation, the penalty for crimes will be collective-for one dead Muslim one hundred Sebs will be liquidated-for one wounded Muslim (depending on the wound severity) 10-50 Serbs will be executed[ibid].

The document further elaborates how the Serbs would be treated in the Islamic Republic.

“All Serbs will have a 12-hour working day. The wages will be proportionate to the loyalty of all employees and as a rule they will be paid 30 percent less than the wages of Muslims whom occupy the same post ... Serbs will receive rations for food, which they will obtain in special shops. Serbs do not have national parties and if the do not abide by the rules of political life, they will not be entitled to political organization or to vote..Serbs are equal to Muslims if, of their own will, they are received into the Islamic faith of their forefathers...A good Serb is a living and obedient Serb or a dead, disobedient Serb [ibid].

The presidency of the Association of the Islamic Clergy (Ilmia) for B&H offered in 1992 in huge print, run in annual Takvim, the following instruction for jihad:

“Jihad in Islam is not only a war in the name of Allah. In reality, Islam is a revolutionary ideology and program that aims at changing the social system of the whole world and order it in harmony with its regulations and ideals. Islam wants to destroy all the states and governments anywhere on earth which stand opposed to the ideology and program of Islam, regardless of the state or the nation that is in power. The purpose of Islam is to establish the state based on its ideology and program, no matter which nation becomes the bearer of Islam or which nation is undermined in the process of establishing the ideological Islamic state” [ibid].


See: Who was Alija Izetbegovic: Moderate democrat or radical Islamist?

and
Alija Izetbegovic: A Retrospective Look at His Impact on Balkan Stability


For photographs of Izetbegovic's massacres (perpetrated by his Islamist Nazi "tough guy", Naser Oric: given a "harsh" 2 year sentence by NATO's Hague ICTY and RELEASED!) in the towns and villages of Srebrenica, Bratunac,Skelani,Milici, Kravica, Gorazde et al, see: The Real Srebrenica Genocide


Of course, the Gaurdian and BBC knew that Izetbegovic was a Nazi as early as 1983 when he was jailed for his Islamist attempted terrorist activities, but deliberately censored the truth about his WW2 Nazi background and genocidal Nazi beliefs which he reiterated publicly in a shuttle tour of fundamentalist Islamist terrorist states in the Middle East during 1991 (especially his visit to Tehran where he agreed with the Ayatollah Khomeini that Salman Rushdie deserved the death sentence for writing "the Satanic Verses").
ITN reporters went to Bosnia in 1992 in search of "concentration camps held by the Serbs" after American reporter, Roy Gutman, of New York's "Newsday" paper made a sensational claim - with no independent proof whatsoever - (other than Izetbegvic SDA government press releases)that the Bosnian Serbs were running "death camps".

Pity ITN didn't do so in 1991 when there were already real death camps set up at the Borovo footware factory and the "Rowing Club" in Vukovar, Croatia: at least 1,000 Serbian civilians -including women,children & the elderly - were beheaded and dismembered in a two month period in late 1991 by Tudjman's neo-Ustasha Nazi "Black Legion" troops (Croat version of the SS) with many more thousands of Serbs being murdered and half a million expelled from late 1991 to late 1995. See Hiding Genocide:Croatia has resumed its "liquidation" of Serbs, while arguing that "ethnic cleansing" is a Serbian creation...

BarnsleyBeck said...

ben, patrick and gaz don't provide a single witness
from the ICTY to prove their hilariously ridiculous
arguments.

Take Ben for example. He compares the Bosnian Civil
War with the Holocaust.

Hmmmmmm ! Ben ole sort, you are aware that the civil war took 100,000 lives.

Croat, Muslim, Serb, military and civilian.

That's right , 100,000 on all sides.

100,000 in total.

Yet you are happy to compare this with the Holocaust.

You're not a Holocaust revisionist are you? The reason I ask is you're oh so happy to belittle the plight of the Jews in WW2.

I think we should be told

Witch-king of Angmar said...

LOL, gaz, your evidence that genocide existed is that it has a legal definition and that Milosevic had tha capacity! You couldn't make this stuff up!

The fact is that since 1999 NATO could not prove one shred of evidence of a genocide and the numerous forensic investigations of alleged mass grave sites have unearthed around 3000 bodies of all nationalities that died in various ways. Also the late Daniel Pearl in his article in the LA Times on Dec. 31st debunked many NATO war propaganda ploys.