"Here's one we 'liberated' earlier. The mounting crisis over Kosovo, which is set to come to a head in the new year, is a grim epitaph for the Blair years and the doctrine of 'liberal interventionism'. The war in 1999 was held up as a success story- NATO air strikes on make-up women, refugee columns and market squares not withstanding. Scalpelled out of the complexities of this part of the world was a modern-day morality tale, absolute and Manichean. Many, even on the left, were taken in.....A lot has happened since 1999. Above all we have the "war on terror" against Afghanistan and Iraq, with threats against Iran. I very much hope that those who were caught up in the rhetoric of 'liberal humanitarianism' eight years ago will see where it has led. As they saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool twice, shame on me".
You can read more of George Galloway's brilliant piece on the toxic legacy of Blairite 'liberal intervention' in today's Morning Star.
32 comments:
I should have known a dictator loving hypocrite like Galloway would be behind keeping Kosovo under the Serbian thumb.
Neil, I know you turn a blind eye to the likes of Milosevic - but even you can't be blind to 700 years of history which prove time and time again that Kosovo has no part in being part of Serbia.
If you are uncertain on anything other than your rose-tinted fantasy of nineties Yugoslavia, I have written quite extensively about it here.
http://rolandhulme.blogspot.com/2007/12/kosovo.html
Hi Roland,
I'll certainly take a look at your article. But I didn't turn 'a blind eye' to Milosevic in the 1990s, I looked at Milosevic with both eyes open. And I saw a democratically elected socialist leader who was demonised by the west for trying to hold Federal Yugoslavia together and maintaining a truly mixed economy. The trial at The Hague was a massive embarrassment for NATO, as John Laughland detials in his excellent book 'Travesty' which I heartily recommend- if Milosevic's guilt really was so obvious, how come they couldn't come up with any evidence?
Have a good Christmas and send some that snow you've got stateside over here to Blighty!
best wishes,
Neil
Under Milosvich Serbia commited inhuman crimes. Had he really been ashamed of these then he would have handed the guilty parties over.
He didnt.
In speaking up for Milosevich you speak up for these murderers.
I can see why Kosovo would want nothing to do with Serbia, in much the same way i could unserstand if Scotland wanted to leave the UK due to our imbecility in Iraq.
And as for Galloway supporting Kosovos return to the fold, what more can you expect from the man who wants Hezbullah and Hamas to truimph over a democratic state?
There may well be some good reasons to oppose independace for Kosovo, but im afraid you dont seem to put them on display Neil.
As things stand, what with the general acceptance of the right for people to forge their own destinies then Kosovo has the right ot independance, if it is what they want. In much the same way that the Falkland Islands or Gibraltar have the right to remain English, even though geographically and militarily it makes more sense for them to belong to others.
National Self Determination trumps all, in the same way Syria had no right to hold onto Lebanon or Russia no right to crush Chechnya Serbia has no right to Kosovo unless the people of Kosovo want it.
That said, a very Merry Christmas to you!
Cheers
Anonymous Pete
I know we don't agree on a lot of things, but I was not crazy about NATO becoming an aggressive force.
I was preoccupied at the time.
I was truly shocked at the conduct of George Galloway when he was on the Michael Medved show. Medved was a nice host, and Galloway was a horrible guest. Most talk show hosts and guests, even when they disagree vigorously, are civil during the breaks. But Galloway went a mile and a half out of his way to be rude and discourteous as a debating tactic.
For me, it's not about insisting on one side or another, but in exposing the western hypocrisy towards Serbia throughout the 20 century. We have witnessed the concerted destruction of Serbia by the west, which turned a blind eye (while we are on the topic) on crimes committed against Serbs, or in fact actively encouraged them (arming the KLA for example).
Anonymous Pete, the Wilsonian principle is all well and good in worlds such as Narnia and Middle Earth, but there are hierarchies that dictate differentiated treatment towards particular places. I take it you would fully endorse endeavours by the Serbs in Bosnia to form an internationally recognised Republica Srpska and that you are fully behind Transnistria's right to be recognised internationally.
Since you mention Gibraltar, what are you feelings on a hypothetical scenario in which a city or part of a city in Britain decides to secede from Britain as the population in said city/region wants to?
But in relation to Kosovo, I have no reason to question Kosovo's aspiration for independence. My complaint has been with regards to the western hypocrisy and one-sidedness in the Balkans.
There are comprehensive works on 'Balkan' history, from Mazower to Glenny and Judah. There is a publication by Babak Bahador, The Cnn Effect in Action: How the News Media Pushed the West Toward War in Kosovo (Palgrave, 2007)...I haven't read it yet, but it might add something to this debate that has re-emerged.
700 years of history which prove time and time again that Kosovo has no part in being part of Serbia.
Mr. Hulme must have been learning history from David Irving.
Olching, some parts of England do want to leave the union, independance is more nad more popular in Scotland, likewise, if for the sake of arguement Cornwall wanted to go its own way then how could we justify saying no to them? It happened in Ireland and look at the hell that helped unleash.
And again, yes if the Serbs in Bosnia want to form their own state then how could I say yes to Kosovo and no to them?
The West hasnt been great in the Balkans, but I'd wager that they've been rather better than an unchecked Serbia, and having made a promise to Kosovo to support their independance have no choice but to go throught with it.
Slightly less anonymous Pete
Pete, it is obviously easy for people who believe all they ready in the papers to come up with statements such as yours. If you live in Britain then I would like you to imagine the following scenario. The muslim minority in Bradford or Hounslow decide that, because they are in the majority, they want to declare independence. The same minority, muslim, decide that they either don't like the look of say, Westminster Abbey and dynamite it to smithereens, or decide they want to convert it into a mosque. This is the crux of the matter here so please don't say that it isn't the same, etc. Milosevic is dead. There is a govt. sympathetic to the West in place in Belgrade. I know that the West is counting on elections happening before the land grab but I think that the Serbs are in the situation of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. But mostly, shame on the West for demonising, vilifying and destroying the only real ally they had in that part of the world.
Mr. Hulme, anyone can write extensively on anything they want. This, unfortunately, does not mean that they know their subject matter. There was no fantasy in Yugoslavia in the 90's. It was a nightmare we had to survive through and remain sane and alive. The west turned a blind eye to Milosevic because they did not want Yugoslavia to stay together. Kosovo and Metohija are a part of Serbia and always were. The churches and monasteries dating, some, from the 14th century say that it is so. Ultimately Resolution 1244 guarantee this. The Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia. KiM is a part of Serbia thus KA are a minority in Serbia.
May I suggest Rebecca West's Black Lamb Gray Falcon if you are interested in the history of Yugoslavia. It was written in the 30's but it absolutely applies today. Judah and Glenny have never hidden their dislike of the Serbs and for that reason I would say their writing on the subject is pretty one sided.
Thanks for your comments regarding Serbia and Kosovo, and not just the recent ones either. For everyone who thinks Western capitalism is so great and wonderful, maybe you ought to visit a Native American reservation some day. It is as poor, miserable, and sad as it comes. Nowadays, the West, and in particular the Americans, are trying to sell Serbia the same bill of goods they sold the Indians 200 years ago.
I take your point regarding Judah...absolutely.
I left the comment regarding the plight of the American Indian, which is even sorrier than any Albanian, Irishman, Welshman, or for that matter, Palestinean. If Milosevic was so evil, why wasn't he indicted until 5 years after the end of the Bosnian War? After all, the neocons love to blame him for that war, and Srebinicia, so he should have been indicted in 1994, not 1995. The reason is politics; he was no where "guilty" as Americans wanted him to be, but eventually, he was an convenient excuse to unleash the American war machine, even better than Minh.
"Mr. Hulme must have been learning history from David Irving."
No, actually I learnt my history when I earnt an honours degree in it.
In the 618 years since Kosovo was lost to the Serbs after the 1389 Battle of Kosovo, it has only been under Serbian control for 31 years - in three seperate periods during the 20th century. That's about 5% of it's history.
Serbia has no authority to claim that territory. The only extended period in which Serbia did have control (23 years after World War 1) was a direct result of the League of Nations meddling. The very same thing you're complaining about now. Guess that's only a valid complaint if it's directed towards the Serbs.
90% of the Kosovo population have no ties to Serbia - and haven't since 1389.
Despite efforts in 1912, 1915, 1918 and 1991 to deport, cleanse or exterminate the ethnic Albanian population, Serbia has never made inroads in that country.
It's not theirs - they should piss off and leave the country alone.
WRITING ABOUT KOSOVA CAN BE UNHEALTHY FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
Roland, I think your historical argument/analysis is flawed in several ways:
In the 618 years since Kosovo was 'lost' by the Serbs, it was under foreign rule. You're painting a romantic picture of a free Kosovo, in which the evil Serbs usurped its independence. 31 years, you say: that is nonsense (partly because you exclude Yugoslavia and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes from the record). Not that it matters to the overarching argument, but twisting facts won't get us anywhere.
Then there is the problem of the territory: Kosovo. Kosovo has shifted borders and its geography throughout history, so when we talk of Kosovo nowadays, it is different to Kosovos of previous periods.
Thirdly, to deny the important Serb heritage (both past and present) in Kosovo is historical illiteracy. The Nemanjic dynstay (albeit before your arbitrary 618 years you've imposed...1389 is not a natural cut-off point or point of departure) greatly helped shape Kosovo (Pristina and Prizren) and the number of Serb Othrodox churches is witness to large number (some historians argue the majority) of Serbs and Slavs in that region. They continued to influence the trade routes and the trade after 1389 right up until recently.
You also omit the fact that due to ethnic cleansing in the Second World War a large number of Serbs (perhaps well over 100,000) were either expelled or killed and, no, for the most part they were not allowed to return to Kosovo after the war under Tito.
Moreover, before, during, and after the Kosovo war in 1999 alongside the Albanian refugees, there were also a large number of Serb refugees, which have not returned since.
What you have done is to paint a very rose-tinted view of history. Like I said, I don't think it's helpful to consult history over who should be where, but to present such a skewed view of history exposes your agenda.
Personally, I think there is a case for Kosovo's independence, but it's not as straightforward as people make out it is (Wilsonian principle and all that jazz). What this whole affair has highlighted is the western hypocrisy towards Serbia and the wider region of the western Balkans. While turning a blind eye to atrocities committed against Serbs and airbrushing the history to suit western agendas (see Roland), they have endorsed Kosovo and the virtually unsustainable country of Bosnia as a cause celebre. Condemning one side and celebrating another in an uncritical fahsion simply won't do. Less hypocrisy and more honesty, please.
Very well, Mr Hulme.
But obviously your honours degree is a construction as your history is.
You really made me laugh loud. That sentence - '90% of the Kosovo population have no ties to Serbia - and haven't since 1389.' - my God, do you really think all people who read this blog are so stupid? Do you have intention to abuse intelligence of all of us.
Just a few facts:
- after 1389 there was the Turkish occupation and there were not Albanians who rule the Kosovo and Metohija land. They were officially obedient but lived in their own law ;
- during the titoism Serbian investments in Kosovo and Metohija were the most;
- even nowadays the great number of Albanian (Shiptar) women go to Serbian hospitals in Kosovo and Metohija to parturiate. Do they really hate Serbs? When they need help they apparently believe to Serbs more that to UNMIK or thier own (Albanian) doctors.
- and many other examples.
Well, Mr Hulme, your history is absolutely a propaganda, you have no ideas about real life in Kosovo and Metohija, today or ever. And your real role is to support extremists like that person who calls himself 'k050vA'.
Your history is also a threat.
kv50v4 - you're very brave, making threatening comments from behind the anonymity of a computer screen.
Zhana and Olching - All I did was outline the facts as they were written in a series of credible history books. If you've got issues with the facts, then that's fine. However, all it seems you're doing is trying to put a 'spin' on things and failing miserably.
It's the age old question of sovereignty - the same one we run into in Isreal and Northern Ireland. I find there's an awful lot of hypocrisy going around when people defend one standpoint, but back the opposing side in another similar situation.
Look at the facts. The majority of the Kosovo population want to be independent. There is no real historical reason not to give them their independence. All you'd manage to achieve by not granting them independence is legitimising the KLA all over again - who aren't particually nice people.
The western powers need to correct the mistakes we made in the early half of the 19th century. Kosovo should have the right to be independent, instead of letting a bunch of powerful nations dictate that Kosovo should remain under Serbian rule.
Roland, the whole point is that they are not 'facts' as you presented them, but were rather agenda-driven points. As a student of history, you'd appreciate that presenting historical analyses as *facts* is not history, but exploitation of history. They are namely precisely that: analyses.
I read your blog on Kosovo. I'm glad you're interested in the region, but I'm afraid it represents a poor attempt at misconstruing history for political purposes.
As I said, there is a proper debate to be had regarding Kosovo and independence. Your attempts to misrepresent history according to your agenda disqualifies you from such debates.
Olching - I have no agenda whatsoever. How come whenever anybody reads something from a credible history book, it's all 'propoganda' servicing some shadowy 'agenda?'
Roland Hulme said...
"No, actually I learnt my history when I earnt an honours degree in it. In the 618 years since Kosovo was lost to the Serbs after the 1389 Battle of Kosovo, it has only been under Serbian control for 31 years - in three seperate periods during the 20th century. That's about 5% of it's history"
If that is what you really learned earning your honours degree you should ask for your money back, that is useless piece of propaganda and has nothing to do with history.
For anyone to say that Serbia has no authority to claim Kosovo as its own territory is either deluded or a willing servant of aggressive policy.
Roland, you do have an agenda. You're not dispassionate to what goes on in the Western Balkans; pr do you just happen to have blogged about it?
Which credible history books are you referring to? Even Judah wouldn't write Balkan history like you do. Balkan history (like any other history) is not black and white. It's highly complex.
Anyway, here's a good article just up on CiF:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/raju_gc_thomas/2007/12/sacrificing_stability.html
That's really what the debate is about, not convaluted history.
The main problem with letting Kosovo beecome "independent" (actually a NATO subsidised colony forever) is that about half the territory had a non-Albanian majority before NATO allowecd the campaign of genocide & ethnic cleansing. Anybody who thinks there is a "right" for the current inhabitants of the cleansed areas to secede is deliberatelylegally supporting genocide & ethnic cleansing, which in my opinion are very bad things indeed.
So long as they are willing to say the same applies to Republica Serpska (in its former boundary), Krajina, San Deigo & Bradford I would have no further objection to a division on ethnic lines.
Raju GC Thomas is a good writer, but he's not totally accurate. Let's not IGNORE the fact that Kosovo was part of the Ottoman Empire for 800 years. Despite a small Serbian population, Kosovo has effectively been seperated from Serbia for the best part of a thousand years. Even during the days of Yugoslavia before Milosevic, Kosovo was pretty much a unilateral entity under it's own jurisdiction. It was a self-ruled province within Yugoslavia.
Let the people of Kosovo choose their own destiny. Forcing Kosovo to remain part of Serbia makes no sense and would just give legitimacy to the KLA.
Roland, Kosovo as we understand it has changed its geography and demographics. The Serb population was not always small. It suffered ethnic cleansing during WWII and equally chose to leave Kosovo (as did numerous Albanians) during the Kosovo crisis 98/99.
We cannot pretend that Kosovo has always been a consistent entity that has always seen Albanian self-rule as a natural conclusion.
All this aside (I think historical approaches aren't that helpful), the case for independence has to be looked at carefully. You say:
"Let the people of Kosovo choose their own destiny. Forcing Kosovo to remain part of Serbia makes no sense and would just give legitimacy to the KLA."
Fine. But then let's other people (e.g. Serbs in Rep Srpska, or indeed any other group that is part of a souverign state and wants away) choose their own destiny. And another note: independence for Kosovo in the current environment (which is dominated by a western anti-Serb sentiment) would rather give legitimacy to the KLA.
As I said, I'm not principally opposed to independence; I just think in the current environment it is utterly hypocritical and arbitrary.
And now just a little about real history:
http://www.kosovo.net/default3.html
I especially recommend you the GOLGOTHA page:
http://www.kosovo.net/default2.html
Mr. Hulme, it's great to see someone outside of the Balkan region to present the situation exactly as it has been. It's interesting how not one newspaper article has forgotten to fully mention the genocide that Milosevic and his followers have committed. They only mention how he was cleansing the Albanian ethnics, but it goes way deeper than that. They were commiting massacres that go beyond ones imagination...The reason why Serbs, won't let go of Kosovo it's because of the natural resources that are there...oil, gold, coal...and many more...espeacially in Mitrovica....
I was very surprised and dissapointed that Galloway does not support Kosovo's independence...He continuosly mentions his support on Palestine but yet in the case of Kosovo which the situation is very similar he was very quick to judge.
Ten years after NATO bombing and destroying Serbia,its southern province Kosovo and Metohija,still is a black hole of Europe.
First-there are no precise number of either Shqiptar or other nationalities living there.Real census is believed to be about 1,2 million Albanians(Shqiptars) which is about half-million less than government statements.
Second-most of the land is still legally private ownership of either Serbian people or Serbian Orthodox Church-which is going to be solved by Court in Strasbourg quite easily(e.g., protection of private ownership).
Third,Kosovo and Metohija is to Serbs what Vatican is to Catholics or Mecca to Muslims-their Holy Land.
Regarding cultural and historical heritage there are no traces of Albanian impact ,quite contrary Nemanjic dynasty,Hrebeljanovic dynasty bulit all medieval monasteries.Only savage KLA(Albanian fascist) could burn and devastate over 156 medieval churches and monasteries.NATO and EU turned their blind eye.No democratic Albanians prevented such a horror and crime to European Christian heritage.
Now,Kosovo Police(former KLA) is to take care of Serbian heritage?
Vatican is most delighted by such "deeds" and opening large basilica in Pristin.
What a picture in the center of Prishtin:sesoned Clinton`s statue in the main square(no Monica,Hillary will see to it in a few days),his boulevard, PM Tachi`s boosting trade of the most popular Afghan plant...
And Academy of Art and Science of Kosovo, University,Library,TV there as well-all remnants of those days under Belgrade "oppressors"?!
As of now NATO has not built any similar cultural institution if Bondstill is not regarded as one.
Prizren(on the border to Albania) was royal city ,Decani wee built before Oxford and Cambridge,and served as first universities as well.
But Britain seems to be blind,deaf and mute to genocide over Serbians.
Further cutting the university budget in Britain and elsewhere would enable further manipulation of public either by media(BBC,CNN)to the ends of corporate capitalism.
I presume that those reasons prevented British public in dismantling B(Liar) and other war-mongers immediatedly.
According to law Kosovo and Metohija is Serbian land both historically,legally and morally.
Albanians are but pariahs to NATO-the moment they realise it-no NATO soldier would be safe there.
Self-proclaimed government of KiM is to be accused of genocide,etnocide(230.000 Serbs) and culturocide of Serbian and Europe heritage.
Interpol and CIA have very gloomy picture of present KiM situation regarding economy,safety and democracy...
It is obvious, Mr Clark, that you have no clue what was happening in Kosovo, let alone Yugoslav political and socio-economic situation. Slobodan Milosevic was a far right politician who installed an authoritarian iron-fist fascist régime in Yugoslavia and killed political opponents and journalists (Google: Ivan Stambolić, Slavko Ćuruvija...). How many people were killed prior to the Bulldozer Revolution? Pavle Bulatović, Žika Petrović, Boško Perošević... he, at least twice, tried to assassinate Vuk Drašković first at Ibarska Magistrala (October 1999, killed 4 his relative and friends instead of him) and in Budva (June 2000). It is a shame and insult for hundreds of thousands of victims of his imperialist conquests and aggression to call him "a democratically elected socialist leader." By the way, he was not democratically elected, he fooled election results in both 1996 and 2000. He was an oppressive tyrant and I don't see any problem with his ICTY trial - he had a perfect judge, Sir Richard May who prevented obstruction of process.
How many people who have been posting comments up to now hold a degree in history expect Mr. Hulme?
What are your credentials to discredit a man with a major in history?
Or better yet, might I ask where you got all the "straight facts" ,as you call them, from. And don't mention kiddie’s websites like kosovo.net or a friend told me so.
I was a supporter of Mr. Galloway for a long time against the war in the East, but I was disappointed when he opposed Kosovo's independence. It was more than 10,000 Albanians brutally killed and buried in mass graves, and not 3000 Mr. Galloway. And there are still mass graves today that have not been found yet.
It is what Mr Hulme said: true facts to some people are considered propaganda. That is a failure towards people to recognize and distinguish between facts and what is propaganda. But then again no one here mentions what their credentials were for them to speak with such hatred, security and irony towards this issue. Propaganda aims for such people for it is an easy target.
Might I ask Mr. Holems what is his agenda? What is he gaining from this agenda? Or for that matter what agenda are these people referring to? I don’t understand why mentioning this agenda dialog so many times where is has nothing to do with the issue. It is just a blunt point for no other reason to be a blunt point and to satisfy your own egos.
I support Kosovo’s independence 100 percent. I think it’s their right as a nation to do so if they want to!
Mr. Galloway is saying that this is going to trigger a war in the Balkans; I think he is wrong because by taking this away from Kosovars, it will result in a blood bath and Balkan will be a land of war until one side is left standing. Yes, it is this by much how much these people want freedom and independence. And for the record, I am not from Kosovo, so some of you can stop saying what a fanatic nationalist he is.
It would be inhumane to support Milosevic, a person who has ordered and did nothing to stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and even towards his own people. This man should be equaled to Hitler. They had same goals, for different people.
The churches in Kosovo are a main reason for the Government of Serbia to say that Kosovo is ours. How an orthodox church, where everything is written in old Greek and Latin language, can be tied to a nation cultural heritage?
If we go by that mentality than Greece and other nations should be claiming pieces of land from all over the world. Lets also not forget the Serbian propaganda was always considered by hisotrians and news agencies to have one of most powerful propaganda machines in Europe.
This is for Mr. Galloway. Out of anybody, you should be happy for Kosovo and use that excuse to liberate Palestine from the occupier, Israel. Since this is all you talk about with such passion. Walk the walk as well Mr. Galloway! To you the west governments are criminals because of what they have done in the East. But let’s put our quick judgement aside and think straight for a while because they can match their good decisions with their bad decisions as well. One of them is recognizing Kosovo's Independence. Kosovo was lucky to have Nato to interfere, something that the Palestinians don't. And that's what you should be fighting about and not saying NO right away to whatever USA, and Great Britain does without you thinking it through.
Mr Clark, almost every dictator was elected democratially. Zhana so far you only have been proving Mr. Hulme's points.
There is no more I can write to this point because i wont be gaining anythning in "my agenda". What is done is done now, people should learn and live in peace even though it might be hard for some people to accept the truth, and that is Kosovo Is Now An Independent Country.
Kosovo is independent there nothing to it and it dose not belong to serbia if your going to quote books then at least have both sides i am pretty sure that the kosovan people would have some history books of their own written by a kosovan person but since your all talking about history look up "Illyrians" and as it has been confirmed by greek and albanian historians (albanians are descends of the Illyrians wich in a way would suggest that they where there first.
i am not defending them i know of many things the KLA has done to serbs but that dose not even come close to the rape and tourture that the kosovan people have gone through and theres no point in saying resulution 1244 it dosent actually mean Kosovo belongs to serbia. it means its disputed territory
so i would like to ask a question we build mosque in england because there are muslims here in 100 years from know when those mosque look old a derelict do we say that england was a muslim country ?
and for some of you people that dont know kosovan and albanians used to be christians themselves they weren't called serbs or croats they where "shqiptar" after the ottoman rule they converted to islam so on the basis that there are churches in Kosovo dosent mean its serbian land just means some christian people lived their lives there
because if that was the case i am 100% that there are mosque in the North of Greece which if carbon dating was used one would say those buildings have been there for very long time then technically that land belongs to the albanian people.
and no it wasn't a embarrassment for NATO because Kosovo is the richest pure cole country in Europe thats a fact and the only and only resone Serbia is trying to hold on to Kosovo is for a place "TREPCA" ask any serb in belgrade they will tell you its how belgrade got rich in the first place its located in the north of Kosovo called Mitrovica and produce minerals i.e Copper,Zinc,Gold and Coal and is still working till this day.
Kosovo is small because most of its land has been taken by croatia Macedonia and Serbia and with a pupilation of less the 2.5 million they are no match to Serbia at a war but where they lack in man power they make up in brains as know for securing kosovos independence America has the its biggest army base in the world (outside america ) placed nicely in Kosovo, but people please dont quote me books when your living in england and never been to Kosovo no book will ever teach you the pain of seeing your family die infront of you or live under serb rules which meant as a kosovan you weren't allowed out after 4pm or the police would kill you.
Eleanor Roosevelt;
We have to face the fact that either all of us are going to die together or we are going to learn to live together and if we are to live together we have to talk.
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